9mm ammo

Zorba · 10-02-2018, 10:03 PM

I don't pretend to know the square root of eff all about this subject, but two pages and I have yet to hear any concrete reason as to why the OP's ammo would be harmful to a Luger, or any other gun. All I'm reading here is FUD - come on guys, we can do better than this.

Sieger · 10-03-2018, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

I don't pretend to know the square root of eff all about this subject, but two pages and I have yet to hear any concrete reason as to why the OP's ammo would be harmful to a Luger, or any other gun. All I'm reading here is FUD - come on guys, we can do better than this.

Zorba,

Breach block slap.

Sieger

DonVoigt · 10-03-2018, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

Zorba,

Breach block slap.

Sieger

I do believe Zorba meant why that particular ammo would cause harm.
We have most all seen evidence of "toggle slap", but have no idea whether a few or a few hundred rounds of "hot ammo" caused it- or thousands of rounds of "normal" 9mm P; or a weak mainspring caused the any problem

You and others "assume" it will cause "problems", but without any data or experience with the same ammo to back it up.
Without evidence- like published velocity data, or first hand experience; it is all conjecture.
Everyone has said- "maybe, could, might, possible"; which sounds like "nervous Nellies" to me.

JMHO.

Zorba · 10-03-2018, 10:50 AM

Yep.

kurusu · 10-03-2018, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I do believe Zorba meant why that particular ammo would cause harm.
We have most all seen evidence of "toggle slap", but have no idea whether a few or a few hundred rounds of "hot ammo" caused it- or thousands of rounds of "normal" 9mm P; or a weak mainspring caused the any problem

You and others "assume" it will cause "problems", but without any data or experience with the same ammo to back it up.
Without evidence- like published velocity data, or first hand experience; it is all conjecture.
Everyone has said- "maybe, could, might, possible"; which sounds like "nervous Nellies" to me.

JMHO.

My view on "toggle slap". Toggle slap is part of the Luger operation as much as the mark on the VIS of a 1911. It will occur with any military specs ammo. The amount of firing done with the pistol will increase the marked area without fail. The truth is, most Lugers were very seldom fired, even during the war, pistols were mostly a badge of rank or a last resort weapon. Any Luger that has shot more than 2k rounds will have evidence of "toggle slap". Either you shoot it or you don't.

Of course you can carefully tailor loads that will not do that (around 850 fps with a 124gr bullet will do that, and the pistol will cycle), but they be will well below any militay specs load performance. And the Luger was designed as a militay pistol from the start even those in .30 caliber.

Rick W. · 10-03-2018, 07:13 PM

Context kinda comes to mind.

War weapons, used in war, the longevity of the weapon is not a primary goal, make them cheaply and put as many into your side's hands as possible. Ammo kinda the same to me, steel is easier to procure than brass.........hard on chambers, but............who cares in events like that; as long as it goes bang, what's a little toggle slap or accelerated wear among friends? That same thought process even pertains to the poor individuals behind them, after all, everything or anyone is certainly replaceable in some circles.

Everyone has their own thoughts on all of this Luger pistol, Luger ammo, springs, etc. Some think as long as it goes bang, we don't care beyond that. Some that want to preserve what they have, try to use methods that will keep the pistol intact for a while. All pistols break, does not seem logical to me(my own opinion surely) that I should go looking for trouble by ignoring what the pistol is telling me, sorta speak.

Barrel steel is relatively soft, is cartridge steel harder or softer?. Perhaps an exercise for the internet google types huh? for those do it yourselfers, rub a piece of cartridge brass on a steel barrel(hopefully a discarded barrel, not your 1900). Then rub a piece of steel cartridge onto the barrel; each until you give up on the possible learning(if any) concept. One might consider using the case sharp mouth as the contact to the barrel, might take longer, smooth on smooth; but to each their own process. Could be just a silly Rick W. snipe hunt.......... :-) Never done it myself, but I can imagine...........and that is still a freedom currently.

I shoot Lugers a fair amount, even the ones in stainless that everyone bad mouths, all I can say is that my Lugers, stainless and blue are getting the best I can give them. Not making many anymore, I can see the time where my lamp for these pistols will eventually go out...........but hopefully my Lugers will still function and offer their mystique to the next user says the non collector.

As usual............to each their own..............maybe one of our greatest freedoms.

4 Scale · 10-31-2018, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

War weapons, used in war, the longevity of the weapon is not a primary goal, make them cheaply and put as many into your side's hands as possible.

I found your comment interesting. I've talked to guys who restore WWII fighters (Hurricanes and Bf109s) and they say exactly the same thing about the aircraft. It creates all kinds of issues in restoration and then operation of vintage aircraft.

Re: Lugers, I'm almost wondering if it would make sense to come up with a custom load that is lighter than WWB 115gr., and then balance (weaken) the mainspring just enough to cycle the pistol, all with the objective of lowering pressures and therefore aiding in preservation. In a perfect world there would be a way to measure mainspring strength and then go to a table to verify that you are ok or not vs. the ammo you want to use. In the real and imperfect world I've had to settle for the tape test instead.

Rick W. · 10-31-2018, 01:23 PM

Greg,

My comment about war weapons is one of the darker sides of the gunmaker's art form and guess at times, humanity. A simple example of going econo............might be............from the finely made Thompson 45acp sub gun............to the 45 cal grease gun. Both did what they were made for. Just an observation from a casual reserver.

I found your comment about vintage airplanes interesting as well, never thought down that line before.

I have found the tape test to be an indicator of what is going on with a Luger at times. Whomever thought of that, was a thinker; certainly was not me. An easy asset with everyday items..........he had a fine thought that day, useful it is.

I have used the Wolff 38# spring so long that I don't know nothing else, 30's or 9's or wildcats. I have some 36# springs as well, but after all these years and doing stuff, they sit in their wrappers unopened fwiw.

I have not thought about reducing load or spring compression numbers enough to be even semi dangerous. As a norm, every new to me Luger gets a 38# wolffee if I am going to shoot it a lot. Not everyone would agree with that, and I can see their points too; to each their own as they are the ones the buck stops with.

I have long dreamed of a wildcat in 22 to 25 caliber on the 9mm or 30 Luger case. As you know the Luger is a pretty good design to start with. I have visited with fairly heavy Luger guys about such and they all warn me about function without undue pressures, if I got the gist right. I have just finished a 22 squirrel on a K38 frame with K22 barrel and cylinder, made my own dies too. I think the smallish caliber Luger probably is more of a challenge, guess that is why I have laid off for these many years on such.............wimp I guess.

A moderate load in the semi regular 30 or 9, that works the action with a little overage probably will last your lifetime. I think there are functional characteristics that take certain power and resistance.

I have not thought about an under loaded Luger much, but tis good to see the fire in the distance. There is so much to these pistols............a lifetime is not enough.

10-03-2018, 07:13 PM	#6
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Context kinda comes to mind. War weapons, used in war, the longevity of the weapon is not a primary goal, make them cheaply and put as many into your side's hands as possible. Ammo kinda the same to me, steel is easier to procure than brass.........hard on chambers, but............who cares in events like that; as long as it goes bang, what's a little toggle slap or accelerated wear among friends? That same thought process even pertains to the poor individuals behind them, after all, everything or anyone is certainly replaceable in some circles. Everyone has their own thoughts on all of this Luger pistol, Luger ammo, springs, etc. Some think as long as it goes bang, we don't care beyond that. Some that want to preserve what they have, try to use methods that will keep the pistol intact for a while. All pistols break, does not seem logical to me(my own opinion surely) that I should go looking for trouble by ignoring what the pistol is telling me, sorta speak. Barrel steel is relatively soft, is cartridge steel harder or softer?. Perhaps an exercise for the internet google types huh? for those do it yourselfers, rub a piece of cartridge brass on a steel barrel(hopefully a discarded barrel, not your 1900). Then rub a piece of steel cartridge onto the barrel; each until you give up on the possible learning(if any) concept. One might consider using the case sharp mouth as the contact to the barrel, might take longer, smooth on smooth; but to each their own process. Could be just a silly Rick W. snipe hunt.......... :-) Never done it myself, but I can imagine...........and that is still a freedom currently. I shoot Lugers a fair amount, even the ones in stainless that everyone bad mouths, all I can say is that my Lugers, stainless and blue are getting the best I can give them. Not making many anymore, I can see the time where my lamp for these pistols will eventually go out...........but hopefully my Lugers will still function and offer their mystique to the next user says the non collector. As usual............to each their own..............maybe one of our greatest freedoms. Last edited by Rick W.; 10-03-2018 at 08:09 PM.

10-02-2018, 10:03 PM	#1
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 528 Times in 290 Posts	I don't pretend to know the square root of eff all about this subject, but two pages and I have yet to hear any concrete reason as to why the OP's ammo would be harmful to a Luger, or any other gun. All I'm reading here is FUD - come on guys, we can do better than this.

10-03-2018, 10:50 AM	#4
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 528 Times in 290 Posts	Yep.

10-31-2018, 01:23 PM	#8
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Greg, My comment about war weapons is one of the darker sides of the gunmaker's art form and guess at times, humanity. A simple example of going econo............might be............from the finely made Thompson 45acp sub gun............to the 45 cal grease gun. Both did what they were made for. Just an observation from a casual reserver. I found your comment about vintage airplanes interesting as well, never thought down that line before. I have found the tape test to be an indicator of what is going on with a Luger at times. Whomever thought of that, was a thinker; certainly was not me. An easy asset with everyday items..........he had a fine thought that day, useful it is. I have used the Wolff 38# spring so long that I don't know nothing else, 30's or 9's or wildcats. I have some 36# springs as well, but after all these years and doing stuff, they sit in their wrappers unopened fwiw. I have not thought about reducing load or spring compression numbers enough to be even semi dangerous. As a norm, every new to me Luger gets a 38# wolffee if I am going to shoot it a lot. Not everyone would agree with that, and I can see their points too; to each their own as they are the ones the buck stops with. I have long dreamed of a wildcat in 22 to 25 caliber on the 9mm or 30 Luger case. As you know the Luger is a pretty good design to start with. I have visited with fairly heavy Luger guys about such and they all warn me about function without undue pressures, if I got the gist right. I have just finished a 22 squirrel on a K38 frame with K22 barrel and cylinder, made my own dies too. I think the smallish caliber Luger probably is more of a challenge, guess that is why I have laid off for these many years on such.............wimp I guess. A moderate load in the semi regular 30 or 9, that works the action with a little overage probably will last your lifetime. I think there are functional characteristics that take certain power and resistance. I have not thought about an under loaded Luger much, but tis good to see the fire in the distance. There is so much to these pistols............a lifetime is not enough.