Japanese Mum Luger

alanint · 07-21-2018, 07:35 PM

This is floating around the net again.

Thoughts on definitive answer to this?

I've always understood that they are fakes.

sheepherder · 07-21-2018, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

This is floating around the net again.

Thoughts on definitive answer to this?

I've always understood that they are fakes.

You got a link???

Edward Tinker · 07-21-2018, 09:19 PM

fakes

DonVoigt · 07-21-2018, 09:31 PM

Been "debunked" several times. Total fake.
The Japanese didn't even put "mums" on their own made pistols!

alanint · 07-21-2018, 09:55 PM

Here goes?

Ron Wood · 07-21-2018, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

...I've always understood that they are fakes.

What you have always understood still holds true.
Ron

HerrKaiser · 07-21-2018, 10:46 PM

The Japanese did take captured Dutch Lugers, but these were used in semi-official capacities and never marked by Japanese armories.

sheepherder · 07-21-2018, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Here goes?

Good shot!

I sort of vaguely remember, in an old-mans memory, that it was sacrilegious to allow weapons with the Chrysanthemum to fall into US hands...

Here's one explanation -

https://www.gunboards.com/sites/banz...MissingMum.htm

Hey, here's a stamping die from an old guy in Prior Lake!

Zorba · 07-22-2018, 03:28 AM

Hmmm, I have a gun with Elven runes on it, it must have been made in Valinor...

hayhugh · 07-22-2018, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Been "debunked" several times. Total fake.
The Japanese didn't even put "mums" on their own made pistols!
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plates: 14, 17, 41, 45; Art. luger rear sight slide # 03

Not a photo of my Baby Nambu but photo showing "mum" on cocking piece.

DonVoigt · 07-22-2018, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayhugh

Not a photo of my Baby Nambu but photo showing "mum" on cocking piece.

Sorry Hugh, but that is not a "mum"; it is simply machining for a better grip to remove. All the T 38 and T 99 rifles and carbines have a similar pattern on their safety, for "grip" when turning.

The "Mum" is a very specific flower with a certain number of petals, which is only used for the Emperor of Japan- I believe the Emperor's mum has 18 petals, and the "regular" mum only 16. But I could be off on the petal count, the significance is that they are different and the pattern on the Baby safety is not a mum with petals.

alanint · 07-23-2018, 09:25 AM

Well, the mouth breathers over on this "collector's" site are still arguing convoluted scenarios where this Luger might be possible. There is no reasoning with them.
I am convinced that if I engraved an R2D2 on a Luger, I could get an internet expert to argue a time travel scenario.

sheepherder · 07-23-2018, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Hmmm, I have a gun with Elven runes on it, it must have been made in Valinor...

Pictures!

Edward Tinker · 07-23-2018, 10:25 AM

On Facebook it is being argued, unsure of any other site today. However, I have looked at a couple - I think never in person.
From what I understand;
**the writing doesn't make much sense
***Chrysanthemum wouldn't be on a pistol - not on T14 nor a T94
****One argument is that it is in Mike Jones book (so early that it likely isn't a fake is the thought process)
*****So few of these - shouldn't there be scores that come up?

sheepherder · 07-23-2018, 12:33 PM

There is one in Harry Jone's book Luger Variations pg 209, pub 1959.

Datig also mentions the possibility of Japanese 'Mum' Lugers (but no pictures) in the 1958 revised printing of The Luger Pistol.

As with the Totenkopf Luger(s), I seriously doubt that anyone in 1959 (or earlier) would have bothered faking a less than $50 Luger...

IMO there must have been at least one with the markings. Maybe not an 'official' stamping, but realistic enough to convince the experts of that period.

DonVoigt · 07-23-2018, 01:23 PM

"As with the Totenkopf Luger(s), I seriously doubt that anyone in 1959 (or earlier) would have bothered faking a less than $50 Luger...

IMO there must have been at least one with the markings. Maybe not an 'official' stamping, but realistic enough to convince the experts of that period. "

Well, could have been an early Shattuck boost, nothing like taking a $50 pistol and making a $200 pistol out of it!

JMHO.

sheepherder · 07-23-2018, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Well, could have been an early Shattuck boost...

Did Shattuck ever list or show a 'Mum' Luger to any of his many friends here??? He could have had one of the 'real' Mum Lugers...Or been sold one...

BTW: Jone's pictures show the Japanese 'Mum" Luger as being in the Russ Storer Collection, and shows 'Gesichert' as the safety marking (not 'Rust').

wlyon · 07-23-2018, 02:06 PM

Anyone who says never on lugers has 1. not been around long or 2 Has not looked or studied lugers. Bill

Edward Tinker · 07-23-2018, 03:01 PM

I did not see a Japanese marked Luger on Shattucks personal collection document

hayhugh · 07-23-2018, 04:48 PM

It was not back from the shop yet...

07-21-2018, 07:35 PM	#1
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Japanese Mum Luger This is floating around the net again. Thoughts on definitive answer to this? I've always understood that they are fakes.

07-21-2018, 09:31 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	Been "debunked" several times. Total fake. The Japanese didn't even put "mums" on their own made pistols! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-21-2018, 10:46 PM	#7
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 887 Thanks: 835 Thanked 897 Times in 434 Posts	The Japanese did take captured Dutch Lugers, but these were used in semi-official capacities and never marked by Japanese armories. __________________ -QM

07-23-2018, 01:23 PM	#16
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	"As with the Totenkopf Luger(s), I seriously doubt that anyone in 1959 (or earlier) would have bothered faking a less than $50 Luger... IMO there must have been at least one with the markings. Maybe not an 'official' stamping, but realistic enough to convince the experts of that period. " Well, could have been an early Shattuck boost, nothing like taking a $50 pistol and making a $200 pistol out of it! JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-23-2018, 02:06 PM	#18
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,673 Thanks: 3,243 Thanked 2,658 Times in 988 Posts	Anyone who says never on lugers has 1. not been around long or 2 Has not looked or studied lugers. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

07-21-2018, 09:19 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	fakes

07-22-2018, 03:28 AM	#9
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 528 Times in 290 Posts	Hmmm, I have a gun with Elven runes on it, it must have been made in Valinor...

07-23-2018, 09:25 AM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Well, the mouth breathers over on this "collector's" site are still arguing convoluted scenarios where this Luger might be possible. There is no reasoning with them. I am convinced that if I engraved an R2D2 on a Luger, I could get an internet expert to argue a time travel scenario.

07-23-2018, 10:25 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	On Facebook it is being argued, unsure of any other site today. However, I have looked at a couple - I think never in person. From what I understand; **the writing doesn't make much sense ***Chrysanthemum wouldn't be on a pistol - not on T14 nor a T94 ***One argument is that it is in Mike Jones book (so early* that it likely isn't a fake is the thought process) *****So few of these - shouldn't there be scores that come up?

07-23-2018, 03:01 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	I did not see a Japanese marked Luger on Shattucks personal collection document

07-23-2018, 04:48 PM	#20
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 898 Thanks: 892 Thanked 514 Times in 276 Posts	It was not back from the shop yet...