Interesting Safety precaution

Story · 06-13-2018, 04:25 PM

Came across this in peripheral readings and didn't see it specifically addressed anywhere else.

From Ray Riling's reprint of Hatcher et al's Firearms Identification.
https://www.amazon.com/Firearms-Inve.../dp/0960309497

Vlim · 06-13-2018, 05:20 PM

And that is why the german police introduced the sear safety.

The principle of firing the upper is also discussed in period police manuals, even with a description of how to build a demonstration setup.

And the extractor serves as a loaded chamber indicator.

Zorba · 06-13-2018, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

And the extractor serves as a loaded chamber indicator.

Yet all you hear is a bunch of pissing and moaning over the subject of LCIs on modern guns!

Vlim · 06-13-2018, 07:43 PM

A loaded chamber indicator is the best invention that came after ammo was invented

lugerholsterrepair · 06-13-2018, 08:20 PM

Just as a pilot will not take off without a thorough flight check, you should not clean, or even handle ANY firearm without checking the chamber for a live round. My Father pounded that into our heads at 4 years old when we first started shooting. EVEN if the previous handler has checked the chamber..YOU had to check when it was handed to you!

Story · 06-14-2018, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

The principle of firing the upper is also discussed in period police manuals, even with a description of how to build a demonstration setup.

That'd be interesting to see a pics of those pages.

DonVoigt · 06-14-2018, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Story

That'd be interesting to see a pics of those pages.

Chapter 36 in the green Goertz and Sturgess volumes, starting on page 1093 tell the story.

There is a poster of a policeman cleaning his luger, the title is :
"Watch out : DANGER threatens here!"

Related commentary and documents and great pictures are found on the following pages.

Vlim · 06-14-2018, 09:50 AM

This is wat Gustav Schmitt wrote in 1923:

'I like to demonstrate the following accident at the shooting stand (the chamber is prepared), image 19, during pistol cleaning.

A (demonstrator) takes the previously loaded pistol 08 apart until barrel with housing and toggle (do not remove pin, housing, lock!):

He removes the loaded magazine, but leaves, without informing the onlookers, the cartridge in the chamber. When asked, most onlookers will state that the barrel (with housing and toggle) will not be dangerous. The demonstrator then slides this assembly into the retaining board and presses the tip of the sear, pretending that it is being cleaned: a shot will fire. The two targets F receive a stomach shot.

The more surprising the shot from the small pistol part is, the more convincing the impression of the danger of the pretended known weapon.

Building the retainer: (see image 19): On a table behind the housing a slate Q is nailed, to contain the recoil. Close on either side of the barrel and receiver 2 sets of nails (N) are placed to prevent a sideward movement of the barrel. The front pair is to prevent the barrel from moving upwards.The toggle is unharmful in this state.

This is not in line with the description that Sturgess gives in his book (surprise), Sturgess suggests that Schmitt used a blank, but Schmitt clearly states that he used a live round and that the hitting of 2 targets in the stomach area was a deliberate and important part of the impact of the demonstration.

kurusu · 06-14-2018, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

A loaded chamber indicator is the best invention that came after ammo was invented

But it seems many don't pay attention to it.

mrerick · 06-14-2018, 06:56 PM

There was even a German soldier training poster made to warn about this issue. It says:

"Remember, danger threatens here!"

and was distributed by the High Command of the Air Force, General of the Antiaircraft arm.

MikeP · 06-14-2018, 07:29 PM

I got my 1st Luger when I was about 14.
One of the 1st things I noticed was this feature.
I never ever thought it would be a good idea to fire it in this mode.
Young soldiers need lots of supervision regarding most anything, though..
Then there are general idiots running loose who are capable of most anything.
Any firearm must be treated as if it is loaded at all times.

rolandtg · 06-14-2018, 11:33 PM

Somewhere there was better video than this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPWVenArYKY

06-13-2018, 04:25 PM	#1
Story New User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 3 Thanks: 3 Thanked 9 Times in 1 Post	Interesting Safety precaution Came across this in peripheral readings and didn't see it specifically addressed anywhere else. From Ray Riling's reprint of Hatcher et al's Firearms Identification. https://www.amazon.com/Firearms-Inve.../dp/0960309497

06-13-2018, 08:20 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Just as a pilot will not take off without a thorough flight check, you should not clean, or even handle ANY firearm without checking the chamber for a live round. My Father pounded that into our heads at 4 years old when we first started shooting. EVEN if the previous handler has checked the chamber..YOU had to check when it was handed to you! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-14-2018, 09:50 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,042 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,920 Times in 1,193 Posts	This is wat Gustav Schmitt wrote in 1923: 'I like to demonstrate the following accident at the shooting stand (the chamber is prepared), image 19, during pistol cleaning. A (demonstrator) takes the previously loaded pistol 08 apart until barrel with housing and toggle (do not remove pin, housing, lock!): He removes the loaded magazine, but leaves, without informing the onlookers, the cartridge in the chamber. When asked, most onlookers will state that the barrel (with housing and toggle) will not be dangerous. The demonstrator then slides this assembly into the retaining board and presses the tip of the sear, pretending that it is being cleaned: a shot will fire. The two targets F receive a stomach shot. The more surprising the shot from the small pistol part is, the more convincing the impression of the danger of the pretended known weapon. Building the retainer: (see image 19): On a table behind the housing a slate Q is nailed, to contain the recoil. Close on either side of the barrel and receiver 2 sets of nails (N) are placed to prevent a sideward movement of the barrel. The front pair is to prevent the barrel from moving upwards.The toggle is unharmful in this state. This is not in line with the description that Sturgess gives in his book (surprise), Sturgess suggests that Schmitt used a blank, but Schmitt clearly states that he used a live round and that the hitting of 2 targets in the stomach area was a deliberate and important part of the impact of the demonstration. Attached Thumbnails

06-14-2018, 06:56 PM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	There was even a German soldier training poster made to warn about this issue. It says: "Remember, danger threatens here!" and was distributed by the High Command of the Air Force, General of the Antiaircraft arm. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

06-13-2018, 05:20 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,042 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,920 Times in 1,193 Posts	And that is why the german police introduced the sear safety. The principle of firing the upper is also discussed in period police manuals, even with a description of how to build a demonstration setup. And the extractor serves as a loaded chamber indicator.

06-13-2018, 07:43 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,042 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,920 Times in 1,193 Posts	A loaded chamber indicator is the best invention that came after ammo was invented

06-14-2018, 07:29 PM	#11
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	I got my 1st Luger when I was about 14. One of the 1st things I noticed was this feature. I never ever thought it would be a good idea to fire it in this mode. Young soldiers need lots of supervision regarding most anything, though.. Then there are general idiots running loose who are capable of most anything. Any firearm must be treated as if it is loaded at all times.

06-14-2018, 11:33 PM	#12
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 471 Thanks: 363 Thanked 255 Times in 111 Posts	Somewhere there was better video than this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPWVenArYKY