1914s What Is The Difference?

[cirelaw]

Are they the same?

[HerrKaiser]

No they are not. the DWM artillery Luger is a wonderful find, the Erfurt is as well but there some notable differences. Firstly, DWM was originally the sole manufacturer of all P08 designs. This changed in 1909 when the Imperial government ordered production to begin at the royal Prussian factory/arsenal/armory at Erfurt. DWM was originally a commerical producer. As such, their pistols' manufacture and finish was designed to be elegant and beautiful, fit to put in a display case to sell to commercial buyers, even if the pistol was going to go to the military. Erfurt was a longtime military factory/armory/arsenal for Prussia and later the German Empire. Their pistols are built to the same specs as DWM, but they were designed to produce military weapons and so the craftsmanship and finish quality of the erfurt lugers are not the same, as you may have noticed. Erfurt Lugers of all types are generally considered to be less desirable than their DWM counterparts for this reason. Many on here describe them as "functionally ugly". They are both fantastic pieces and both are Lugers from top to bottom...but no they aren't the same.

[cirelaw]

Thank You With Sharing That! Here is the 169 Baden

[DavidJayUden]

While I don't disagree with HerrKaiser, and actually those have always been my exact thoughts, Eric if you have the time and photo gear, could you do a comparison of your 2 Artilleries, the Erfurt vs. the DWM? Examine them both, with a loop if necessary, and see if you can ID specific areas where the fit/finish is less perfect on the Erfurt? I suspect that it will be something of a challenge.
Just an idea...
dju

[cirelaw]

I definitly Love this era`Here is the regiment 169 Baden Infantryhttp://www.pals.org.uk/ir169_e1.htm

[cirelaw]

http://www.pals.org.uk/ir169_e1.htm Thank You George Anderson~

[JTD]

Early Erfurt production was of a very high standard and comparable to DWM in my opinion. Later on during the war, the finish started to drop off, as supply could not meet demand in an effort to increase production numbers. I personally have no problem adding a unit marked Erfurt to the collection. John

[cirelaw]

David you are probobly right. I will examine it tonight.

[cirelaw]

Where any DWM 1914 regiment artillery or the stock unit marked?

[cirelaw]

I fould these while moving! Can someone help with ID?

[cirelaw]

close ups

[DavidJayUden]

Can you visibly see any differences in the depth of the tool markings around the safety lever or on the right side opposite the safety?
I agree that this all may be more of a challenge on the 1914 guns vs, say, the 1918 models.
Thanks for indulging me here.
dju

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Can you visibly see any differences in the depth of the tool markings around the safety lever or on the right side opposite the safety?
I agree that this all may be more of a challenge on the 1914 guns vs, say, the 1918 models.
Thanks for indulging me here.
dju

I can see tool markings/traces- more or less- on different 1917/18 Erfurt lugers, some are much more "finished" than others. I believe it has a lot to do with the individual who did the work on a particular unit, JMHO.

But generally speaking, the later made examples are less well finished than the earlier ones- very much like the US M 1903 and A3 rifles made in WWII by Remington. None of the cosmetic deterioration made the units any less useful.

[DavidJayUden]

"But generally speaking, the later made examples are less well finished than the earlier ones"

Specifically what was less well finished? Deeper tool marks, lesser final polish, ill fitting parts/grips, spotty bluing?

Maybe we should be comparing the early vs. the late Erfurts?

Thanks again.
dju

[George Anderson]

Generally speaking, 1914 and earlier Erfurts are just as well finished as are DWMs. In 1914 the German government ordered the Erfurt arsenal to dramatically increase their production of KAR 98s. This coincided with a depletion of skilled workers either through the draft or workers being lured away to commercial arms firms that were willing to pay higher wages.

After 1914 the Bavarian arms commission sent a delegation to Erfurt to find out why quality of Erfurt arms were deteriorating. The delegation later reported their findings laying the blame on the above factors as well as the fact that Erfurt was filling empty slots on their manufacturing lines with semi-competent new hires including women.

[HerrKaiser]

"After 1914 the Bavarian arms commission sent a delegation to Erfurt to find out why quality of Erfurt arms were deteriorating. The delegation later reported their findings laying the blame on the above factors as well as the fact that Erfurt was filling empty slots on their manufacturing lines with semi-competent new hires including women."

Then again, in the conditions of WW1 and WW2 its not nearly as important who makes them, how they are made, or what the finish quality of the weapon is. The overriding factor is that you can rely on your weapon to go bang bang as the enemy is assaulting your position. So far from what I've read and heard, the Erfurts still did that even if they weren't as stylish looking as a DWM.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

"But generally speaking, the later made examples are less well finished than the earlier ones"

Specifically what was less well finished? Deeper tool marks, lesser final polish, ill fitting parts/grips, spotty bluing?

Maybe we should be comparing the early vs. the late Erfurts?

Thanks again.
dju

Yes, more tool marks less polish. Ill fitting parts won't work. Grips ?
Bluing may actually be better than the earlier pieces.

Generalizing is always dangerous, as I said, it depends more on the particular examples being compared.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

"After 1914 the Bavarian arms commission sent a delegation to Erfurt to find out why quality of Erfurt arms were deteriorating. The delegation later reported their findings laying the blame on the above factors as well as the fact that Erfurt was filling empty slots on their manufacturing lines with semi-competent new hires including women."

Then again, in the conditions of WW1 and WW2 its not nearly as important who makes them, how they are made, or what the finish quality of the weapon is. The overriding factor is that you can rely on your weapon to go bang bang as the enemy is assaulting your position. So far from what I've read and heard, the Erfurts still did that even if they weren't as stylish looking as a DWM.

Folks often confuse "quality" with appearance. The final test/inspection kept the functional quality to the specified level.