Replacing springs

Rick W. · 10-31-2017, 08:37 AM

Jim,

I have to admire the craftsmanship and knowledge that goes into the Luger assembly. Materials have changed I think over the years. That said, the Luger materials have weathered a lot of storms. People tell me that making a spring has its nuiances, when you get done, either you have a spring or you don't.........

I shoot my Lugers; what a pleasure that is. With each new one to me acquired, I am just accustomed to replacing the recoil spring at a minimum. I use Wolff just because I have some and been ok with them. I have noticed that some of the Wolff recoil springs are longer, but seemed to work for me.

If I was pondering such, I would certainly buy or build a recoil tool like some shown on this forum, kinda an awl looking affair with a bend at the nose. Gives you leverage for the coil spring compression. Of course, if you are handy; make your own. I used a pair of pliers and a rod for years, but cannot say that was intelligent, worked; but not intelligent.

Did I mention safety glasses, folks(user or helpers) only get one set of peepers.

I would examine the ramps for galling from the toggles hitting the ramps abbynormally hard and the area of the frame behind the toggle(just above the lanyard loop) for bite. Some guns will give some mark(two side by side marks on the frame), some will be well bitten. The tape test visited here during a firing session will help judge, as will your hand during firing (sting).

Some will tailor reloads or ammo to the pistol. I prefer to handload myself, and will tune the load to just function from the magazine and then a bit more.

Wolff may offer 36,38,40lb rates for Lugers. I have only used the 38lb in my Lugers, I have 36's for 30's, but never used them in the 30 Luger or the 7.65x19 wildcat. Perhaps my lot of springs was ok; I never worried about it, worked.

The other spring I would look at is the extractor spring. See if the extractor can clear an empty shell in the chamber. The spring stack up in my opinion has to be able to allow the nose of the extractor over the case rim without springing of the extractor itself. If the extractor starts acting like a primary spring, because the little spring is too long and stack up jam occurs, the extractor will probably start to fracture and fail. Easy to do, could save an expensive part.

I think the recoil mechanism is fairly complex as are most autoloaders. The recoil spring is a major player in all of this, but the condition of the rails(tightness, sprung) will contribute to the friction resistance. Another is the ammo load itself, way up there in pressure works great but batters, too low......jams. Kinda like the 3 bears and their bowls of porridge huh?

The leaf springs for the sear and the ejector itself. I just test for tension ability and the ability to move like they should in range. Harder to find than coil springs, I have replaced one sear spring that went out into the blue(snapped) at the range one time.

I remember some discussion about making new coil recoil springs on this forum, you might try a quickie search if so interested

Rick W.

sheepherder · 10-31-2017, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Did I mention safety glasses, folks(user or helpers) only get one set of peepers.

This very thought occurred to me the other day, whilst I was re-assembling a 1911 recoil spring plug...The barrel bushing was tight, and the Colt bushing tool slipped off. The plug caromed off the side of my head and has not yet been found.

I was able to get a new plug from Numrich [$26]. But it was a close call.

G.T. · 10-31-2017, 09:10 AM

Hi to all, a lot of what makes a spring live is covered in the design, and the quality of materials? If a spring is design to work at max load and full compression every time, it will eventually, and continually weaken and sooner or later break?... The initial loss of length is called taking a set, and all coil springs do this to some extent. On the other hand, a spring that always operates in the middle of its work range will last for thousands of cycles, maybe even tens of thousands of cycles... But, Luger coil springs do not enjoy that luxury! Especially the main spring and extractor spring.... The Luger springs were engineered to fit a specific space to address a certain work load that was/is close to max performance demands with every cycle... It would be an interesting experiment to put in a new spring, and measure it at 0 rounds, 10 rounds, 100 rounds, and 1000rounds... any significant change in length after 1000 rounds would probably dictate a change is needed... I know that the tape test is good for calibrating loads, but it doesn't really tell you witch is the culprit/ I find that a Luger with a weak or failing mainspring will not close consistently on the following round?.. New mainspring, and pow! Right back to normal function... best to all, til....lat'r.....GT ....

JimD · 10-31-2017, 09:31 AM

This has been a very good discussion and has given me a lot to think about. After reading dome of the comments I disassembled my two shooters and noticed virtually no wear on the inside of the frames where the rear of the breech bolt would contact during recoil. The exterior of the frame, under the duck bill, has the typical wear marks but they are mostly blue wear with little or no metal wear. I think I'll leave the springs as they are for now and monitor the wear to the guns.

I do a LOT of gun work and wear reading glasses to see what I'm doing. But they also double as safety glasses. Always wear them when working with springs.

Sieger · 11-01-2017, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi to all, a lot of what makes a spring live is covered in the design, and the quality of materials? If a spring is design to work at max load and full compression every time, it will eventually, and continually weaken and sooner or later break?... The initial loss of length is called taking a set, and all coil springs do this to some extent. On the other hand, a spring that always operates in the middle of its work range will last for thousands of cycles, maybe even tens of thousands of cycles... But, Luger coil springs do not enjoy that luxury! Especially the main spring and extractor spring.... The Luger springs were engineered to fit a specific space to address a certain work load that was/is close to max performance demands with every cycle... It would be an interesting experiment to put in a new spring, and measure it at 0 rounds, 10 rounds, 100 rounds, and 1000rounds... any significant change in length after 1000 rounds would probably dictate a change is needed... I know that the tape test is good for calibrating loads, but it doesn't really tell you witch is the culprit/ I find that a Luger with a weak or failing mainspring will not close consistently on the following round?.. New mainspring, and pow! Right back to normal function... best to all, til....lat'r.....GT ....

GT,
About ten years ago, we were going to work on a main spring project together. Any update here?

Sieger

G.T. · 11-04-2017, 12:46 AM

When I had the magazine springs made, I had an in with the general manager who was not afraid to exceed his grasp on my project! In the interim, the spring company was bought out be a large corp. and all were let go, and so went the main spring project... repeated contact efforts was met with the standard corporate, "we don't know what your talking about!" ....

.... I wouldn't mind revisiting the project, but I've so much on my plate already, that it seems unlikely in the immediate future... But, I'm still learning!

You'd think I'd be past that....

... So, anything is still possible! best to you Bob, til....lat'r.....GT....

Leendert1988 · 12-04-2017, 05:10 AM

This is an interesting topic, because I was still in doubt whether I would change the main spring in my BYF 41. It does feel much less strong when I work the action then the one in the p08 of a friend of mine. I also found some damage on the back of the frame.

But my question now is. Is Wolff the best option out there?

John Sabato · 04-30-2018, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

This very thought occurred to me the other day, whilst I was re-assembling a 1911 recoil spring plug...The barrel bushing was tight, and the Colt bushing tool slipped off. The plug caromed off the side of my head and has not yet been found.

I was able to get a new plug from Numrich [$26]. But it was a close call.

That 1911 recoil spring plug is about .45 caliber if I remember correctly... so you can now say you have shot yourself in the temple with a .45 and survived...

Rick W. · 04-30-2018, 11:50 AM

Bob,

When I re-spring a Luger, I will reach for the bag of 38 lb Wolff springs; I pay no attention as to 30 or 9mm chambering. Just one opinion. I have never clipped a coil off a Luger replacement spring fwiw. I have 36 lb and 40 lb springs, but all they do is gather dust so far. As you, I try to cater the load of the day to the desires of the firearm itself, and try not to beat the pistol apart during shooting(enjoying it). Hot loads will run a Luger at times, but the contact surfaces pay for it.........sooner or later. Super hot loads in a Luger always bothered me because of the cuts int he chamber entry, ie a form of gapspace....just a remembrance, nothing else there.

Due to old habits with Lugers, I never load more than 5 in the magazine, old magazines/cracked wood made me a believer fwiw.

My Luger loads are probably in the middle range of published reference reloading data. I use 80 to 100 gr bullets(30 cal) and Unique powder. Unique has gotten a bit cleaner but still not as good in clean as newer powders, but I still have cannisters of it to use up. I have started to venture into resizing 312 bullets down to 309 for flexibility, jury is still out, but at least trying to be open minded.

It takes a bit of hand strength to change the recoil spring in a Luger, the tool like you see here on the forum made similar to an bent awl will give you leverage. The note above on safety glasses I am sure you will heed for all of us, being a shooter type; sight is precious even if one does not have a lot of time.

I have not used factory ammo for years other than carry qualifications, and that was for a cocked/locked 1911 45acp.

One might query and look at the ejector nose/fitment, used guns sometimes surprise the buyers......like me. Things I would have never thought of, I saw in some preowned guns............after I bought of course.

I use the tape test mentioned here on the forum to check for excessive movement rearward of the toggle mechanism. Not all inclusive, but better than just using the feel in the hand(sting). I have the old notion that heavy toggle slap to the frame surfaces will eventually cause issues to said frame and user.

rhuff · 04-30-2018, 03:26 PM

I agree with Rick W. I have been handloading for my Lugers, especially the 7.65P ones, for many years. I try to keep my loads as close to the original factory loads as possible using 92gr. lead and FMJ bullets and Unique powder. My Lugers seem to agree with the recoil impulse produced with Unique powder, so I stick with it. I have used other faster powders, but was not overly pleased with the results.

As to springs, I have the "calibration packs" from Wolff Springs and just do a trial and error approach to what each Luger is happy with when using my handloads. When I do shoot factory ammo in these Lugers, they seem to be o.k. with that ammo as well.

kurusu · 04-30-2018, 04:11 PM

If you really want to know about Luger springs. Consider this. The ejector, in a Luger, is basically a spring. The only ones I saw break, including in one of mine, were modern reproductions.

CRob · 05-02-2018, 06:06 AM

[QUOTE=Rick W.;315830]Bob,

"My Luger loads are probably in the middle range of published reference reloading data. I use 80 to 100 gr bullets(30 cal) and Unique powder. Unique has gotten a bit cleaner but still not as good in clean as newer powders, but I still have cannisters of it to use up. I have started to venture into resizing 312 bullets down to 309 for flexibility, jury is still out, but at least trying to be open minded."

I've come up with a number of boxes of 100gr Speer Plinkers that I'd like to use in my 30. I'm concerned about the depth the bullet seats in the shell. I've got four rounds loaded with 4 gr of Bullseye that i'm taking to the range tonight. I also reload with Unique but had a tin of Bullseye I wanted to use up.
I'm sorry if it looks like I'm hijacking this post but this is the first solid info I've seen on 100gr in a 30.

10-31-2017, 09:10 AM	#3
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,528 Thanks: 1,334 Thanked 3,711 Times in 1,014 Posts	springs Hi to all, a lot of what makes a spring live is covered in the design, and the quality of materials? If a spring is design to work at max load and full compression every time, it will eventually, and continually weaken and sooner or later break?... The initial loss of length is called taking a set, and all coil springs do this to some extent. On the other hand, a spring that always operates in the middle of its work range will last for thousands of cycles, maybe even tens of thousands of cycles... But, Luger coil springs do not enjoy that luxury! Especially the main spring and extractor spring.... The Luger springs were engineered to fit a specific space to address a certain work load that was/is close to max performance demands with every cycle... It would be an interesting experiment to put in a new spring, and measure it at 0 rounds, 10 rounds, 100 rounds, and 1000rounds... any significant change in length after 1000 rounds would probably dictate a change is needed... I know that the tape test is good for calibrating loads, but it doesn't really tell you witch is the culprit/ I find that a Luger with a weak or failing mainspring will not close consistently on the following round?.. New mainspring, and pow! Right back to normal function... best to all, til....lat'r.....GT ....

10-31-2017, 09:31 AM	#4
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	This has been a very good discussion and has given me a lot to think about. After reading dome of the comments I disassembled my two shooters and noticed virtually no wear on the inside of the frames where the rear of the breech bolt would contact during recoil. The exterior of the frame, under the duck bill, has the typical wear marks but they are mostly blue wear with little or no metal wear. I think I'll leave the springs as they are for now and monitor the wear to the guns. I do a LOT of gun work and wear reading glasses to see what I'm doing. But they also double as safety glasses. Always wear them when working with springs. __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

11-04-2017, 12:46 AM	#6
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,528 Thanks: 1,334 Thanked 3,711 Times in 1,014 Posts	Hi Bob, When I had the magazine springs made, I had an in with the general manager who was not afraid to exceed his grasp on my project! In the interim, the spring company was bought out be a large corp. and all were let go, and so went the main spring project... repeated contact efforts was met with the standard corporate, "we don't know what your talking about!" ........ I wouldn't mind revisiting the project, but I've so much on my plate already, that it seems unlikely in the immediate future... But, I'm still learning! You'd think I'd be past that.... ... So, anything is still possible! best to you Bob, til....lat'r.....GT....

04-30-2018, 03:26 PM	#10
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,308 Thanks: 2,737 Thanked 993 Times in 729 Posts	I agree with Rick W. I have been handloading for my Lugers, especially the 7.65P ones, for many years. I try to keep my loads as close to the original factory loads as possible using 92gr. lead and FMJ bullets and Unique powder. My Lugers seem to agree with the recoil impulse produced with Unique powder, so I stick with it. I have used other faster powders, but was not overly pleased with the results. As to springs, I have the "calibration packs" from Wolff Springs and just do a trial and error approach to what each Luger is happy with when using my handloads. When I do shoot factory ammo in these Lugers, they seem to be o.k. with that ammo as well. __________________ Need DWM breechblock #21

05-02-2018, 06:06 AM	#12
CRob User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 30 Thanks: 135 Thanked 13 Times in 7 Posts	[QUOTE=Rick W.;315830]Bob, "My Luger loads are probably in the middle range of published reference reloading data. I use 80 to 100 gr bullets(30 cal) and Unique powder. Unique has gotten a bit cleaner but still not as good in clean as newer powders, but I still have cannisters of it to use up. I have started to venture into resizing 312 bullets down to 309 for flexibility, jury is still out, but at least trying to be open minded." I've come up with a number of boxes of 100gr Speer Plinkers that I'd like to use in my 30. I'm concerned about the depth the bullet seats in the shell. I've got four rounds loaded with 4 gr of Bullseye that i'm taking to the range tonight. I also reload with Unique but had a tin of Bullseye I wanted to use up. I'm sorry if it looks like I'm hijacking this post but this is the first solid info I've seen on 100gr in a 30. Attached Thumbnails

10-31-2017, 08:37 AM	#1
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Jim, I have to admire the craftsmanship and knowledge that goes into the Luger assembly. Materials have changed I think over the years. That said, the Luger materials have weathered a lot of storms. People tell me that making a spring has its nuiances, when you get done, either you have a spring or you don't......... I shoot my Lugers; what a pleasure that is. With each new one to me acquired, I am just accustomed to replacing the recoil spring at a minimum. I use Wolff just because I have some and been ok with them. I have noticed that some of the Wolff recoil springs are longer, but seemed to work for me. If I was pondering such, I would certainly buy or build a recoil tool like some shown on this forum, kinda an awl looking affair with a bend at the nose. Gives you leverage for the coil spring compression. Of course, if you are handy; make your own. I used a pair of pliers and a rod for years, but cannot say that was intelligent, worked; but not intelligent. Did I mention safety glasses, folks(user or helpers) only get one set of peepers. I would examine the ramps for galling from the toggles hitting the ramps abbynormally hard and the area of the frame behind the toggle(just above the lanyard loop) for bite. Some guns will give some mark(two side by side marks on the frame), some will be well bitten. The tape test visited here during a firing session will help judge, as will your hand during firing (sting). Some will tailor reloads or ammo to the pistol. I prefer to handload myself, and will tune the load to just function from the magazine and then a bit more. Wolff may offer 36,38,40lb rates for Lugers. I have only used the 38lb in my Lugers, I have 36's for 30's, but never used them in the 30 Luger or the 7.65x19 wildcat. Perhaps my lot of springs was ok; I never worried about it, worked. The other spring I would look at is the extractor spring. See if the extractor can clear an empty shell in the chamber. The spring stack up in my opinion has to be able to allow the nose of the extractor over the case rim without springing of the extractor itself. If the extractor starts acting like a primary spring, because the little spring is too long and stack up jam occurs, the extractor will probably start to fracture and fail. Easy to do, could save an expensive part. I think the recoil mechanism is fairly complex as are most autoloaders. The recoil spring is a major player in all of this, but the condition of the rails(tightness, sprung) will contribute to the friction resistance. Another is the ammo load itself, way up there in pressure works great but batters, too low......jams. Kinda like the 3 bears and their bowls of porridge huh? The leaf springs for the sear and the ejector itself. I just test for tension ability and the ability to move like they should in range. Harder to find than coil springs, I have replaced one sear spring that went out into the blue(snapped) at the range one time. I remember some discussion about making new coil recoil springs on this forum, you might try a quickie search if so interested Rick W.

12-04-2017, 05:10 AM	#7
Leendert1988 New User Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This is an interesting topic, because I was still in doubt whether I would change the main spring in my BYF 41. It does feel much less strong when I work the action then the one in the p08 of a friend of mine. I also found some damage on the back of the frame. But my question now is. Is Wolff the best option out there?

04-30-2018, 11:50 AM	#9
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Bob, When I re-spring a Luger, I will reach for the bag of 38 lb Wolff springs; I pay no attention as to 30 or 9mm chambering. Just one opinion. I have never clipped a coil off a Luger replacement spring fwiw. I have 36 lb and 40 lb springs, but all they do is gather dust so far. As you, I try to cater the load of the day to the desires of the firearm itself, and try not to beat the pistol apart during shooting(enjoying it). Hot loads will run a Luger at times, but the contact surfaces pay for it.........sooner or later. Super hot loads in a Luger always bothered me because of the cuts int he chamber entry, ie a form of gapspace....just a remembrance, nothing else there. Due to old habits with Lugers, I never load more than 5 in the magazine, old magazines/cracked wood made me a believer fwiw. My Luger loads are probably in the middle range of published reference reloading data. I use 80 to 100 gr bullets(30 cal) and Unique powder. Unique has gotten a bit cleaner but still not as good in clean as newer powders, but I still have cannisters of it to use up. I have started to venture into resizing 312 bullets down to 309 for flexibility, jury is still out, but at least trying to be open minded. It takes a bit of hand strength to change the recoil spring in a Luger, the tool like you see here on the forum made similar to an bent awl will give you leverage. The note above on safety glasses I am sure you will heed for all of us, being a shooter type; sight is precious even if one does not have a lot of time. I have not used factory ammo for years other than carry qualifications, and that was for a cocked/locked 1911 45acp. One might query and look at the ejector nose/fitment, used guns sometimes surprise the buyers......like me. Things I would have never thought of, I saw in some preowned guns............after I bought of course. I use the tape test mentioned here on the forum to check for excessive movement rearward of the toggle mechanism. Not all inclusive, but better than just using the feel in the hand(sting). I have the old notion that heavy toggle slap to the frame surfaces will eventually cause issues to said frame and user.

04-30-2018, 04:11 PM	#11
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 930 Times in 509 Posts	If you really want to know about Luger springs. Consider this. The ejector, in a Luger, is basically a spring. The only ones I saw break, including in one of mine, were modern reproductions.