Luger with Brown Plastic Grips

Aaron · 03-28-2004, 03:44 AM

I have been offered a 40 dated 42 Luger in pristine condition with matching magazine. Certainly not a rare variation, but condition is 99% plus, just a tiny hint of wear on the side plate. The unusual thing is that it comes with a superb set of checkered brown plastic grips which seem identical to those found on Krieghoffs. Jan Still says that a very few of these 40 dates came with these grips. My question is, do the grips increase the value, and what would that be? Asking price is $1200 with no accessories.

George Anderson · 03-28-2004, 08:29 AM

I looked at just such a gun at a gunshop in Charlotte last year for a friend. As I recall the price was $950 and it did not have a matching mag. Jan, among others, advised that it was quite correct but seldom encountered. I advised my friend to snap it up, which he did. Since then I have found a pair of the grips by themselves. They will probably show up on Ebay shortly.

Lugerdoc · 03-28-2004, 10:24 AM

Aaron, These brown checker KH type grips were certainly available to Mauser in 1940, but since they rarely show up and are unnumbered, I would bet that they are later replacements. I once owned a 1916 DWM PO8 that the vet swears came back form WW2 with the brown grips. Very possibily replaced during the war for an armour's kit. Th

Aaron · 03-28-2004, 02:03 PM

My immediate thought was that the grips were replacements, but since the pistol and the grips are in such mint condition, my next thought was that it was an original assembly. I am tempted to buy it if I can get it for $1100.

Pete Ebbink · 03-28-2004, 10:39 PM

Aaron,

I see these brown HK/Mauser grips for sale quite often in the $ 150-200 price range.

Maybe they are popping up on "correct" lugers to add to their value...sort of a "Brown Widow" match-up...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

RockinWR · 03-29-2004, 02:18 AM

Aaron,
* If legitimate HK brown plastic grips, they are known to occur sporatically in the Code 42, 1940 P.08's. I suspect Mauser was trying a batch out before singling up on the black plastic in '41.
* Also, the Blitzkrieg of the Western front was in full swing & Army demands were high. This may have motivated the Army to allow Mauser to utilize non standard grips with little Army Inspector objections.
* Most show up in the g-h-i blocks; but, a few other earlier(d) & later(k)blocks have been reported with a single example.
* What is the S/N of this example?
* IMHO any true 99% original finished Luger is a treasure. These grips certainly add to this distinction and might command a premium to the advanced collector.
Respectfully,
Bob

SteveM · 03-29-2004, 08:27 PM

I have a BYF 42 with the coarse brown HK grips. It is in about 95-96% condition. I can't see any reason why the grips would have been replaced because of the condition that the Luger is in. Who's to say that some armourer in the Luftwaffe didn't change them when they were received or Mauser sent them from the factory this way. Serial number is in the "i" block.

SteveM

MauserLugers · 03-30-2004, 02:32 AM

In my opinion it is pure speculation if these are original issue or replacements. The books that refer to these are using a figure that is speculation of 2%, 3%, or whatever, which in my opinion is just a wild ass guess. In a couple of books it is also reported that 1939 code 42's were issued with brown plastic grips also, which again in my opinion is pure speculation. This was all printed on assumptions from older works and hear-say with no actual facts or documentation to back any of it up.

Further, there very well could have been a very few of these issued with brown plastic grips, but today you would NEVER know which were the real issued guns and which were recent made up guns. There are probably at least a 100 times more brown plastic grips on Lugers today than there were in 1940, so in my opinion they have no added value what-so-ever. They look nice, but that's about it, and if they were not pictured or mentioned in a couple of books there would not be much interest in them as being anything special. There is absolutely no way of knowing at what time the brown plastic grips were issued/added, and there is no established serial range, purely random. - Bill

Pete Ebbink · 04-01-2004, 12:06 PM

Very good article Jan Still just wrote on his discussion group board :

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1497

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

MauserLugers · 04-10-2004, 12:28 AM

Guess I got my ass in a jam again, huh? Makes a guy want to just jump to answer-help someone.

Also, guess Lugers are never messed with in Canada? Guess all the E-bay grips sold in the last 10 years are never used to enhance? Guess the over-all condition of a piece tells which grips were issued with it? Guess vets, dealers, and collectors never change or switch grips? Guess if something is in print, it's beyond question? Guess the directive that Don Hallock has printed with his magazine list stating black plastic grips were authorized for use in June of 1941 means nothing? Guess you can mix apples and oranges (Mausers and Krieghoff's)? Guess it depends on WHO has these pieces as to which are correct and which are recent put-to-gethers?

I always thought you wanted my responses to be "as I see them" and we called them as not to speculate on WHAT could be correct, but rather WHAT WE KNOW to be correct. It appears to me that you can speculate and make any piece correct if one wants to assume certain things. Belief what you want, but I see nothing factual to determine which pieces were issued with brown/black plastic grips and I know of no way for anyone to tell. It is still nothing more than a "wild ass guess" in my opinion. -- Bill

Edward Tinker · 04-10-2004, 12:37 AM

Well Bill, you sure won't see me getting in the middle!

My experience has shown me your WAG's are usually pretty damn good...

Keep shooting straight cowboy <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Ed

Aaron · 04-10-2004, 12:53 AM

Well, I went ahead and bought the1940 Luger with the brown plastic grips. Paid $1150, which I consider quite reaonable for a 99%+ Luger with matching magazine, regardless of whether it comes with brown plastic or wood grips. I think this pistol did not sell at a premium because of the grips, and therefore I see no reason for the grips to have been changed to improve value. As a matter of fact, the previous owner did not even consider the grips unusual. Anyway, I will post pics when I get it in a couple of weeks. meanwhile, I may be offering my 95% 1940 for sale when the new one arrives.

MauserLugers · 04-10-2004, 09:49 AM

Aaron,
Sounds like a very nice piece that you were able to get at a decent price. Good job!

Frank · 04-10-2004, 01:34 PM

Hey Bill, no arguments from this end either.

I have always thought Black Bakelite Grips were only "proper" on byf 41, around the T-Block and later and, of course, the byf 42.

I bought a 1917 DWM that had original Black Bakelite Grips. Could this mean they were used as far back as WWI? No it doesn't, but they got there the same way they did on the 1939. Someone, besides the factory put them there. I don't know if it was an American, Canadian, German or etc. I just know they weren't on the pistol when it left the factory!!

I guess when you have one of these questionable situations, you can justify almost anything to make it true. If wishes were fishes we would all have a boat load of fish!!!

03-28-2004, 03:44 AM	#1
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Luger with Brown Plastic Grips I have been offered a 40 dated 42 Luger in pristine condition with matching magazine. Certainly not a rare variation, but condition is 99% plus, just a tiny hint of wear on the side plate. The unusual thing is that it comes with a superb set of checkered brown plastic grips which seem identical to those found on Krieghoffs. Jan Still says that a very few of these 40 dates came with these grips. My question is, do the grips increase the value, and what would that be? Asking price is $1200 with no accessories.

03-28-2004, 10:24 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Aaron, These brown checker KH type grips were certainly available to Mauser in 1940, but since they rarely show up and are unnumbered, I would bet that they are later replacements. I once owned a 1916 DWM PO8 that the vet swears came back form WW2 with the brown grips. Very possibily replaced during the war for an armour's kit. Th __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

04-10-2004, 12:37 AM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Well Bill, you sure won't see me getting in the middle! My experience has shown me your WAG's are usually pretty damn good... Keep shooting straight cowboy <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-28-2004, 08:29 AM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I looked at just such a gun at a gunshop in Charlotte last year for a friend. As I recall the price was $950 and it did not have a matching mag. Jan, among others, advised that it was quite correct but seldom encountered. I advised my friend to snap it up, which he did. Since then I have found a pair of the grips by themselves. They will probably show up on Ebay shortly.

03-28-2004, 02:03 PM	#4
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	My immediate thought was that the grips were replacements, but since the pistol and the grips are in such mint condition, my next thought was that it was an original assembly. I am tempted to buy it if I can get it for $1100.

03-28-2004, 10:39 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Aaron, I see these brown HK/Mauser grips for sale quite often in the $ 150-200 price range. Maybe they are popping up on "correct" lugers to add to their value...sort of a "Brown Widow" match-up... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-29-2004, 02:18 AM	#6
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Aaron, * If legitimate HK brown plastic grips, they are known to occur sporatically in the Code 42, 1940 P.08's. I suspect Mauser was trying a batch out before singling up on the black plastic in '41. * Also, the Blitzkrieg of the Western front was in full swing & Army demands were high. This may have motivated the Army to allow Mauser to utilize non standard grips with little Army Inspector objections. * Most show up in the g-h-i blocks; but, a few other earlier(d) & later(k)blocks have been reported with a single example. * What is the S/N of this example? * IMHO any true 99% original finished Luger is a treasure. These grips certainly add to this distinction and might command a premium to the advanced collector. Respectfully, Bob

03-29-2004, 08:27 PM	#7
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	I have a BYF 42 with the coarse brown HK grips. It is in about 95-96% condition. I can't see any reason why the grips would have been replaced because of the condition that the Luger is in. Who's to say that some armourer in the Luftwaffe didn't change them when they were received or Mauser sent them from the factory this way. Serial number is in the "i" block. SteveM

03-30-2004, 02:32 AM	#8
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	In my opinion it is pure speculation if these are original issue or replacements. The books that refer to these are using a figure that is speculation of 2%, 3%, or whatever, which in my opinion is just a wild ass guess. In a couple of books it is also reported that 1939 code 42's were issued with brown plastic grips also, which again in my opinion is pure speculation. This was all printed on assumptions from older works and hear-say with no actual facts or documentation to back any of it up. Further, there very well could have been a very few of these issued with brown plastic grips, but today you would NEVER know which were the real issued guns and which were recent made up guns. There are probably at least a 100 times more brown plastic grips on Lugers today than there were in 1940, so in my opinion they have no added value what-so-ever. They look nice, but that's about it, and if they were not pictured or mentioned in a couple of books there would not be much interest in them as being anything special. There is absolutely no way of knowing at what time the brown plastic grips were issued/added, and there is no established serial range, purely random. - Bill

04-01-2004, 12:06 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Very good article Jan Still just wrote on his discussion group board : http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1497 Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

04-10-2004, 12:28 AM	#10
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Guess I got my ass in a jam again, huh? Makes a guy want to just jump to answer-help someone. Also, guess Lugers are never messed with in Canada? Guess all the E-bay grips sold in the last 10 years are never used to enhance? Guess the over-all condition of a piece tells which grips were issued with it? Guess vets, dealers, and collectors never change or switch grips? Guess if something is in print, it's beyond question? Guess the directive that Don Hallock has printed with his magazine list stating black plastic grips were authorized for use in June of 1941 means nothing? Guess you can mix apples and oranges (Mausers and Krieghoff's)? Guess it depends on WHO has these pieces as to which are correct and which are recent put-to-gethers? I always thought you wanted my responses to be "as I see them" and we called them as not to speculate on WHAT could be correct, but rather WHAT WE KNOW to be correct. It appears to me that you can speculate and make any piece correct if one wants to assume certain things. Belief what you want, but I see nothing factual to determine which pieces were issued with brown/black plastic grips and I know of no way for anyone to tell. It is still nothing more than a "wild ass guess" in my opinion. -- Bill

04-10-2004, 12:53 AM	#12
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Well, I went ahead and bought the1940 Luger with the brown plastic grips. Paid $1150, which I consider quite reaonable for a 99%+ Luger with matching magazine, regardless of whether it comes with brown plastic or wood grips. I think this pistol did not sell at a premium because of the grips, and therefore I see no reason for the grips to have been changed to improve value. As a matter of fact, the previous owner did not even consider the grips unusual. Anyway, I will post pics when I get it in a couple of weeks. meanwhile, I may be offering my 95% 1940 for sale when the new one arrives.

04-10-2004, 09:49 AM	#13
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Aaron, Sounds like a very nice piece that you were able to get at a decent price. Good job!

04-10-2004, 01:34 PM	#14
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Hey Bill, no arguments from this end either. I have always thought Black Bakelite Grips were only "proper" on byf 41, around the T-Block and later and, of course, the byf 42. I bought a 1917 DWM that had original Black Bakelite Grips. Could this mean they were used as far back as WWI? No it doesn't, but they got there the same way they did on the 1939. Someone, besides the factory put them there. I don't know if it was an American, Canadian, German or etc. I just know they weren't on the pistol when it left the factory!! I guess when you have one of these questionable situations, you can justify almost anything to make it true. If wishes were fishes we would all have a boat load of fish!!!