Talking to an older Luger collector

[Major Tom]

He told me he started collecting Lugers back in the early '50s. Said none of them were in good firing condition due to replaced parts, broken parts and/or abuse by previous owners. Said it was rare to find a 'good' Luger. He has owned and sold many Lugers.
What is your take about this? I'm looking to buy a nice Luger, but do not want to 'fiddle' with it to get it to work properly.

[spacecoast]

My understanding is that Lugers were very cheap after WWII and didn't go up much until the 70s, possibly later. If he was buying them for $10 apiece then it's hard to say what was available at that price.

Today, there seem to be plenty of decent shooters (mismatched parts or refinished) available, some could use a new recoil spring and a good cleaning or a bit of fiddling, but can usually be made to operate reliably with the right ammo. A good magazine (Mec-Gar) can also be helpful to solve feeding problems. This is a good place to discuss any issues you may have.

[alanint]

I think that he is poorly recollecting the era's reality. There were plenty of really nice, matching, reliable pistols out there at the time. The really nice pieces started disappearing into collections over time, but directly post war, there were plenty of collectable and reliable pistols out there.

[mrerick]

Remember that the source for many Lugers in the United States back in the 1950's was GI bring back pistols. The formally captured ones were being used by European police and military organizations.

That soon after the war, some of the GI's were selling their bring back pistols to raise money to live on or to satisfy debts, but I would guess that the majority of them were being held as war trophies and souvenirs.

There has always been a mix of conditions ranging from pristing factory state guns that may have never been issued, to parts guns assembled from field pickups. If you had more than one, which would you give up first?

Fast forward to today, the one thing we do know is that there will not be new ones, and many of the bring back pistols have come to market as a result of the passing of the greatest generation.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

He told me he started collecting Lugers back in the early '50s. Said none of them were in good firing condition due to replaced parts, broken parts and/or abuse by previous owners. Said it was rare to find a 'good' Luger. He has owned and sold many Lugers.
What is your take about this? I'm looking to buy a nice Luger, but do not want to 'fiddle' with it to get it to work properly.

I "think" he was/is a cheapskate and only bought junk!

If you want one to shoot, buy one from a seller that has shot it and knows it works. The WTS forum here is a good place to start for "shooters" that have been shot!

[wlyon]

My first luger I sold while in college in 1958 for $40. It was a byf 41 I had bought while in the Navy. I did not purchase any more until the early 70's. At that time there were many lugers available at $200-300. Rarely did one find a matching mag. Now they are all over. Surely no one would boost them? ha. In the 50's gun shops had many luger and other WW2 weapons . They were really not big sellers. I remember a Sporting goods store in Colorado with a wooden barrel full of Jap Nambus for 19.95 ea. However, for me anyway, twenty dollars was a lot of money. Present day collectors with their desire for perfect lugers with 2 matching mags has greatly helped the boosters. Bill

[Eugen]

Major Tom, my opinion is that I wouldn't totally rely on the opinion of any one local individual. However, I would tend to rely on the collective wisdom and expertise of the folks on this forum.

But, then I am still in my rookie year of playing with Lugers, so what do I know.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by wlyon

...for 19.95 ea. However, for me anyway, twenty dollars was a lot of money.

Ah, yes, I remember looking at some nice ones available at a dealer/range place in the early 70s, and almost soiling myself when told a nice matching pistol cost $300! But with inflation. the dollar was worth about 7 times what it is now, so things are still not far from that...

Back then I also visited a collector named Hockeborn in Auburn, NY who had a basement room full. I left the brief tour with my head swimming from all the different variations he had on display. It would be almost 40 years later that I bought my first, however--a 1917 DWM Artillery with the stock lug ground off. Too bad, because it is in great condition otherwise, and the only Luger I own about which there is no question as to the originality of its finish. Do any of the forum sages remember that collector?

[hayhugh]

I bought my 1st Luger back in 1956. Mail order out of California seen in back of gun magazine.Working on the Great Lakes had it shipped to Erie Pa. It arrived by mail and the postman said that he had not seen one since he had been in the Army. My mother opened it up to show the postman, I did not see it till I got off the boat a couple of months later. I had paid an extra $5.00 (total $30.00) for select pick. I now owned a Luger. Decided to have it reblued so it would look nice. About 20 years ago my nephew asked if I still had it and I ask did he need it, and so gave it to him, had not shot it since the late 60's Fast forward to 10 years ago Decided I needed a Luger and started doing a little research which I had not done the first time. After I bought a few Lugers I ask the Nephew to look at the one I had given him . He had sold it a couple of years ago for $800.00 when he was short of money. I ask a few questions about it: matching numbers, etc . seems he had someone do some research and it indeed did have matching numbers even the magazine and was also amoung only a few made at a place/country that he could not remember. But could only get $800.00 because it had been reblued. Asked him if I could get permission to look at it but he had sold it thru a third party. So I will never know what I had..........

[Douglas Jr.]

As I was born in the 70s, I simply love the read the 'good ole days" stories.
Memories are Made of This (sweet, sweet).

[Bullet Bob]

I was looking through my 1972 Gun Digest last night, which had a blurb at the introduction of the Interarms Mauser - I'm trying to talk myself out of buying another one (fail ).

That issue also had an article on pages 194-197 by Harry M. Campbell entitled "The Famed Luger of Fact and Fantasy".

He talks about 'souvenir grade shooting Lugers' at that time costing about $50.00, while one of the rare U.S. Eagle M 1900 specimens would cost $200.00 - $250.00. Just gives you an idea of that time period.

The 1972 Gun Digest would have come out in late summer of 1971, so the article was probably written in 1970 or '71.

Anyone remember when Gun Digest was great? Sad to see it these days, although I still buy one every year out of habit. Hasn't been great in my opinion since Ken Warner was the editor. I used to have a full collection, but I've given a bunch away trying to downsize my stuff.

[rhuff]

I purchased my first Luger in 1972-73. I got it from an individual, and he held it for me while I made/saved the $ to take possession of it. I paid either $200, or $300 for it(likely $300)......but I REALLY wanted it!!! I still have it and shoot it. It is an "i" block 1921 DWM alphabet Luger. That Luger "set the hook" and I have loved them ever since.

Looking back now, I likely paid a bit too much, but they weren't real common in the gun stores, and I didn't know anything about them....except that I wanted one!!

[4 Scale]

In my opinion, those wanting a "nice Luger but don't want to fiddle with it" are best served by buying an all-matching pistol in lower cosmetic condition to get the price down. All-matching with significant cosmetic issues starts at around $1,100 in 9mm, lower in .30 Luger commercials. If you buy a Mauser, I think it is a viable "shooter strategy" to buy a nicer pistol in say the $1,500 range and then replace the parts most likely to sustain damage (left grip, extractor, firing pin, ejector, hold open, rear toggle pin). The nicer the matching shooter, the more you might consider buying a separate toggle just for shooting.

Under this theory the "shooter" is a bunch of replacement parts, not a complete pistol.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by wlyon

I remember a Sporting goods store in Colorado with a wooden barrel full of Jap Nambus for 19.95 ea.

Where???, What city??? Do you remember the name of the store???

Even if it was 40 years ago, there must still be some left in the barrel...

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by Bullet Bob

He talks about 'souvenir grade shooting Lugers' at that time costing about $50.00, while one of the rare U.S. Eagle M 1900 specimens would cost $200.00 - $250.00.

I find your post especially interesting because you are referencing a discussion of actual prices of that time, not recollections of price.

Using the govt. inflation calculator
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...972&year2=2016

Converting the 1972 prices to today - the shooter value is $287, the M1900 is $1,435 (using the $250 1972 valuation).

As shooters and M1900 AEs now cost more than $287/$1,425, this is one more piece of data that Lugers appreciate at a rate over the inflation rate. I.e. they have at least some characteristics of an investment.

[wlyon]

The $40 I sold my luger for in 1958 bought my wife and I groceries for 4 weeks. Macaroni and tuna were cheap. The GI bill for Korean vets was $140 per month if married. It was $110 for single. No complaints it and working in a lumber yard got us through college. Would not do it again but glad I did. Bill

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

In my opinion, those wanting a "nice Luger but don't want to fiddle with it" are best served by buying an all-matching pistol in lower cosmetic condition to get the price down. All-matching with significant cosmetic issues starts at around $1,100 in 9mm, lower in .30 Luger commercials. If you buy a Mauser, I think it is a viable "shooter strategy" to buy a nicer pistol in say the $1,500 range and then replace the parts most likely to sustain damage (left grip, extractor, firing pin, ejector, hold open, rear toggle pin). The nicer the matching shooter, the more you might consider buying a separate toggle just for shooting.

Under this theory the "shooter" is a bunch of replacement parts, not a complete pistol.

False economy. The part which breaks will always be one you didn't replace. If you want to shoot, buy a shooter. You will be happy with it. Or, you will catch the "bug" and end up buying another one (or more), nicer, and will be be very glad that you already have a shooter so you will not be tempted to shoot the "new" one.

--Dwight

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

False economy. The part which breaks will always be one you didn't replace.

Statistically sometimes that will be true, sometimes it won't. The entire theory behind the "shooter" concept, at least for me, is mainly risk control. Purchasing a shooter 100% eliminates risk to a collectible, substituting replacement parts reduces but doesn't eliminate risk.

To expand on the example: I think a $1,500 Mauser devalues by perhaps a few hundred dollars if a minor part breaks. If that is true, then spending a few hundred dollars on minor substitute parts seems reasonable to address risk on shooting that pistol. Spending say $1,100 on a "nice" shooter to 100% protect that $1,500 Mauser makes less financial sense to me, although it might make sense for a collector with a lower tolerance for risk than me. I view my Luger parts bin as a type of insurance. It's a percentage call made more difficult by the lack of extensive data on parts breakage.

Some will read this and say, "yeah, but what if a major part breaks?" Then either the shooter or the collectible becomes a $500 parts gun - you have lost $600 on the shooter, $900 on the collectible. A difference of $300 (note this is the same as the difference in pistol cost). Phrased differently, $1,100 was paid to insure against a $300 risk with a low percentage chance of occurring. In strictly financial terms that is expensive insurance.

The existence of unknowns on parts breakage does not invalidate risk control math, it only makes it more difficult to quantify.

The salient variables are value of the collectible, value of the 'shooter' pistol, likelihood of parts breakage, risk tolerance of the individual. When any of these change, the answer changes. Individual risk tolerance includes many more variables such as experience, finances, shooting frequency and so on. That is why I say this is an individual decision.

I realize there is a historical preservation argument; I respect that argument but am only addressing financial risk.

Some will no doubt say I'm over-thinking this. I don't disagree - but to me financial aspects of Lugers are interesting as I'm a finance guy. And am partial to 'nice' shooters.

[DonVoigt]

4 scale,
you left out the obvious reason for buying a shooter to preserve a collectible;
with the shooter in hand, one has another luger! Two is better than one.
JMHO.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

To expand on the example: I think a $1,500 Mauser devalues by perhaps a few hundred dollars if a minor part breaks.

From what I've read here, breaking of even a small numbered part and replacing it with a mismatch halves the value. It's like being a just little bit pregnant.

Then either the shooter or the collectible becomes a $500 parts gun

A complete Luger whether matched or mismatched is worth more than $500 in parts. Parting it out will bring more than the $1500 you spent for it, assuming you sell every part. I use Numrich's parts prices as my 'template', and in many areas they are less than the same parts/assemblies go for on eBay or Gunbroker...But total is still more than a complete Luger.

...$.02 (I accept PayPal)...