Ownership of Firearms in the Netherlands

[RShaw]

Hi all - in answer to a question regarding ownership of firearms in the Netherlands, here below a basic overview:

First of all, owning and shooting a firearm in the Netherlands is seen as a priviledge, rather than as a basic right (as in the US.)

No person younger than 18 is legally allowed to own a gun.
No person with a criminal record is legally allowed to own a gun.
No person without a permit may own, transport, concealed carry, open carry, keep on private property, buy or sell either firearms or ammunition.

To enter the world of sportshooting (hunting is a separate topic- I won't comment on that here) one would do the following:

One registers at an accredited shooting club (called a "schietvereniging") in which one may practice under supervision at a range using firearms and ammunition owned and stored by the club. A "Certificate of Good Conduct" (VOG) must be requested by the new club member at the town hall, and be sumbitted to the club. With the VOG, and 3 months of practise under club supervision, one normally then becomes a full club member. After an additional 12 months active membership, and with the recommendation of the club, one can apply to local police for a gun permit. ("Active membership" is proven by having shot at the range at least 18 times during the 12 month full membership period- one carries a "schietregister" in which the signature of the club secretary and club stamp are used to record each shooting session.)

To actually obtain your permit, you must do the following:
- submit a passport photo
- fill out several forms with the help of the club secretary
- go through a more exhaustive background check by police
- obtain 2 safes approved for storing firearm and ammo separately
- secure the safes to the wall or floor with at least 2 bolts
- pass a visit by police to your residence to verify your safes are properly installed and in order.
- arrange to obtain 1 firearm (max 22 cal) which will be registered with your permit (One cannot have a permit without at least one firearm to go with it.)
- go to the police station and pick up your permit- (They call you)
- pick up the firearm registed with your permit

Once you have your permit, you are able to:
- own, store, and transport the firearm registerd with your permit
- buy / own only the ammunition suited for that firearm
- transport your unloaded firearm and ammo in separate containers, at least one container under lock and key using the shortest route to either gunsmith or shooting range.
- transport unloaded magazines with your firearm.

With this permit you can shoot as aften as you like in any range in the Netherlands, recording each shooting session as mentioned above. When transporting your firearm and / or ammo, one must have the original permit with the gun or ammo. (like driving a car- you need to have a driver's license on your person when driving.)

After 12 months with the above-described permit, and at least 18 shooting sessions, the permit can be extended; you are then allowed to own a maximum of 5 firearms up to but not larger than 9 mm.

After another 12 months, you can then obtain up to 45 caliber arms and ammunition.

If you have a collector's permit, you may own more than 5 firearms; I am not sure about these details right now.

Hope this wasn't too long- perhaps interesting for those of you who are curious about how it works in Europe (Netherlands). Other countries of course have different regulations. Germany is similar, and Belgium is considerably more relaxed. I don't know right now how other European countries operate.

Here a few photos of South Netherlands - Limburg

[DavidJayUden]

Thank you very much!
dju

[mrerick]

Take note that the Netherlands is one of the more supportive countries in the EU as far as gun ownership goes.

Also note that the association with a private "registered shooting club" is required. Should you have a disagreement with your club, it is more than within their power (as a private entity) to eliminate your ability to own a firearm by taking an action against you. I know of at least one situation there where this is happening because of political leadership issues within the club.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe that there are provisions in Dutch law to allow you to use your firearm for self defense. The very existence of private gun ownership is likely justified as preparation for participation in the military.

For those of us in the USA, now constantly pommeled by politicians seeking to further infringe on our gun rights, you can see how important our Second Amendment is to treating firearm ownership and usage as a constitutional right instead of a privilege.

In spite of all this control over private citizens, the path to gun possession for criminals and terrorists in the EU is:

- Acquire weakly deactivated firearm
- Acquire ammunition on the black market
- Reactivate firearm
- Commit crime.

Marc

[Eugen]

RShaw, thank you for taking the time to educate us regarding the gun ownership/use laws in your country. After reading your post, I am much more thankful of our rights (and accompanying responsibilities) even with all the restrictions and regulations in the USA and each state. We don't have it so bad.

It could be so much onerous and costly here.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by mrerick

...
In spite of all this control over private citizens, the path to gun possession for criminals and terrorists in the EU is:

- Acquire weakly deactivated firearm
- Acquire ammunition on the black market
- Reactivate firearm
- Commit crime.

Marc

Also, several incidents involved buying black market guns, some stashed for 20-30-60 years - In pictures in iraq I have seen garands, M16's AK's of course and many others. In the beligium attacks, I think some were reactivated and some were just bought on the black market ...

[RShaw]

Hi All,
Mrerick, your point re self defense here in the Netherlands is correct as far as I know- therefore the laws regarding transport in separate containers, and storage in 2 different safes. There is no such thing as concealed carry or inside / outside waistband, or any other personal carry method for private citizens here at all, much less any provision to legally use your firearm in self defense.

Also your point about the club being able to eliminate your ability to own and shoot a firearm is also true, although I think that happens very rarely. Therefore the 3 month provisional period in which the prospective member is evaluated.... the club takes note of general range behavior, respect for firearms, and even conversation... to see whether this person has the "right mindset." A good idea as far as I am concerned... no problem.

While it is likely true that "the very existence of private gun ownership is likely justified as preparation for participation in the military," but there are also many gun enthusiasts and hobbyists who have had a significant say in the laws as they are now- also designed to keep guns out of the hands of people with ill intent, while at the same time to recognize hunting and target shooting as valid and healthy hobbies. It IS expensive- with club and permit fees... but I'm sure that in the US permits are anything but free. It is also a long road toward owning several firearms for shooting or collecting, but on the other hand, there are very few firearm related "incidents" here.

A statistic I looked up just now :
The Netherlands has a rate of 0,58 firearm related deaths per year (2011) which includes suicides, accidental fatalities, and justifiable homicides.
The United States' figure is 10,54 firearm related deaths per year (2014) which includes suicides, accidental fatalities, and justifiable homicides.
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Wow! I am NOT saying here that the Netherlands is wonderful and the US is terrible.... I am a dual national- Netherlands and US- having grown up and lived in the US for half my life (31 years). The other half I have spent here- 25 of those years in the Netherlands. After having gone through the legal process here to own a firearm, and having grown up with guns in our house (in the US) since we learned to walk... I have to admit that I love the freedom enjoyed in the US for the serious and responsible firearm owner, shooter, hunter and collector. That's one of the things I miss living here. On the other hand, gun accidents involving children, crazy stuff involving adults, irresponsible behavior, etc. gives the "firearm world" a bad name. Here those things just don't happen nearly as often.... the laws do prevent much of that. Yes I have found them sometimes "annoying" especially with the long waiting periods before one can buy and sell great collector's items.... but, ah well.... I need to be patient. And yes, I do favor somewhat more stringent gun control than that in the US at present, after having lived in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands... and in the US and having lived and seen the differences.

You're right Eugen, it's not too bad in the US!! But yes, the US is a more dangerous place.........
You all have a nice day........

[Caferacer]

Separating crimes committed with firearms, vs all crimes of violence committed invariably leads to inaccurate conclusions,
While you are more likely to be shot in the US than say England
You are three times more likely to be a victim of violent crime in England than the US
And a person stabbed or beaten to death, is no better off than a person shot to death
And when you factor in a person who has the right to own a firearm for self defence, and chooses to exercise that right, the odds of being a victim of violent crime are nearly non existent,
Even factoring in that a person who chooses to commit an act of violence, who also owns a firearm, will choose to use that firearm to commit said act of violence, the same person without access to a firearm can still commit rape robbery murder or suicide.

[Eugen]

Originally Posted by RShaw

... the laws as they are now- also designed to keep guns out of the hands of people with ill intent, while at the same time to recognize hunting and target shooting as valid and healthy hobbies.


I do favor somewhat more stringent gun control than that in the US at present, after having lived in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands... and in the US and having lived and seen the differences.

You're right Eugen, it's not too bad in the US!! But yes, the US is a more dangerous place.........
You all have a nice day........

RShaw, you make some great points. There appear to be many irresponsible and criminal gun owners in the USA and our numbers of gun related deaths and injuries are higher than many countries.

But the question is will more regulation make a difference? I believe the issues are more complex than the quantity and the extent of gun and ammo regulations/restrictions. Increases in education, wholesome family values and other social matters need to be included in the discussions. Simply piling up the regulations doesn't necessarily get the results politicians naively imagine. But their speeches, busy work and well meaning intentions on the topic does tend to garner them some votes from the masses of the uninformed.

A great example are the laws in Illinois. A vast majority of the crime and gun violence in Illinois happens in what us down-staters refer as Chicagoland (Cook county and nearby). Chicago is a dangerous place ....but they have far more gun and ammo regulations than the rest of the state. More regulation has not lowered the crime rate involving guns. Criminals obtain their guns and ammo regardless of the laws, it just costs them more to do so.

I doubt more regulation will reduce the deaths and injuries from that population, culture and fill-in other descriptive adjectives that could use to identify the reasons for such lawlessness and lack of respect for the law and life in general that exists within a segment of that city.

I don't claim to have all the answers. But, I am leery that more regulations on honest, mentally stable, responsible citizens that contribute to society (and who cling to our guns and religion according to Obama) is the simple solution to this complex problem. People must change and not just the laws.

More discussion, study and other social interventions are necessary to solve this problem.

[Spanner]

In a recent visit to the Netherlands, I shot sporting clays in the city of Aalten, Gelderland, at a place called Schietbaan Het Goor. I went with a friend of mine who I've also accompanied on deer hunts in towers set up near where he lives. There are lots of red deer in the area. On a side note, there were no pheasant which was really odd. I visit about every 5 years. My father is from the area. Greetz (and no, I really don't speak Dutch but I understand enough to sometimes get by)

[mrerick]

I have a friend that is dealing with some of the issues I mentioned caused by internal political disagreements between members of a shooting club.

In the US system, private organizations (without due process) are not allowed to interfere with firearms ownership and possession rights.

Violent crime statistics are subject to all kinds of interpretation and distortion. In the case of American anti-gun people, the misinterpretation is willful and destructive to our system. The last election helped stop some of this, but we must always remain vigilant.

The current (most recently published) US homicide rate is 4.5 per 100,000.

https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low

Does gun possession cause suicide (the majority of the death rate you quoted)? Of course not. A quick look shows a rate of 7.9 suicides per 100,000 in Netherlands. That is almost twice the US homicide rate. That's right. You're twice as likely to kill yourself in the Netherlands as you are to be killed by someone else in the USA.

There is also a reverse correlation between homicide and the number of guns in our society. More guns; less crime. The drop in firearm related homicide from 1994 (7.0 per 100,000) to 4.5 per 100,000 in 2014 along with the clearance of over 68.7 million ATF / FBI NICS purchase authorizations from 2000 through 2014 would tend to indicate that firearms are being used defensively.

Detailed analysis of our homicide statistics show that quite a few are involved with young black men that are members of gangs. The violence is more intense where drug financed gangs are active. This mimics tribal behavior, and will eventually relate to a pattern seen in the Middle East in active terrorist actions.

In the case of the United States, individual citizens have the ability to defend themselves. In Europe, you will wait for a military or police response during the initial most lethal phases of terrorist actions. This is why US mass killings have all taken place in supposed "Gun Free Zones".

Homicide is not the only crime. Here, for example, is a study of the burglary rate which would indicate that suppression of defensive firearm ownership tends to lead to increased home breakins, and the potential for assaulting those inside.



Look at some of John Lott's material and you'll understand that simple statistics can't explain the difference.

As demonstrated in many places, if someone wants to kill someone else, they will choose the tool available to do the deed.

So - what system is better. You have lived in both. I have lived in the USA and spent time with relatives in Europe. I like both, but feel safer in the USA.

Marc

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Take note that the Netherlands is one of the more supportive countries in the EU as far as gun ownership goes.

Also note that the association with a private "registered shooting club" is required. Should you have a disagreement with your club, it is more than within their power (as a private entity) to eliminate your ability to own a firearm by taking an action against you. I know of at least one situation there where this is happening because of political leadership issues within the club.

I'm not sure, but I don't believe that there are provisions in Dutch law to allow you to use your firearm for self defense. The very existence of private gun ownership is likely justified as preparation for participation in the military.

For those of us in the USA, now constantly pommeled by politicians seeking to further infringe on our gun rights, you can see how important our Second Amendment is to treating firearm ownership and usage as a constitutional right instead of a privilege.

In spite of all this control over private citizens, the path to gun possession for criminals and terrorists in the EU is:

- Acquire weakly deactivated firearm
- Acquire ammunition on the black market
- Reactivate firearm
- Commit crime.

Marc

You left out "steal gun and ammo".

[RShaw]

Hi All,
Without wanting to get too much into this endless debate about gun laws and their effectiveness, I will say that the question, "WILL increased gun regulations REALLY make a difference?" is a point well taken. My simple opinion is, in 2 phrases, "Not really" and "Not by themselves." Yes of course we need good education (especially of children), social awareness, common decency, and a healthy respect for firearms and firearm safety. That said, (as I stated before) I certainly "favor somewhat more stringent gun control than that in the US at present." Of course this is a wide interpretation, thanks for your comment, Eugen, on the laws if Illinois versus those of Chicago. Good point! Having been raised in New York, I can say that the same applies for New York City versus the rest of the state. Regulations which penalize law respecting shooters, hunters and collectors while at the same time do little to curtial availability of arms to criminals are, of course, useless.

Anyway.... enjoy the sport and the fun of collecting special works of art.... as long as you can.
Nice talking to you all.

No pheasant in Aalten? That IS odd.

Groetjes, en tot ziens! = Greetings, and see you soon!
Robert

[DonVoigt]

I believe it is not possible to compare a small country, with an essentially homogeneous population with a very large country with a varied population.

As someone once said, "one can prove anything with statistics".

First time I flew into the Netherlands, I was amazed to see military and police with submachine guns walking around the airport in groups of three; this was in 1988. So - yeah- you feel safer with that kind of police presence- but it was more than unpleasant to think it was necessary.

We still don't have that presence in US airports.

Safer? When you need serious help, call the police- they will be along in 10 or 30 minutes; or reach for your own legal weapon. You choose.

JMHO.

[Caferacer]

More laws will not make a difference
However rational effective laws would make a big difference
the problem is many of the laws we have, and most of the ones being proposed are neither

[RShaw]

Hi Mark, mrerick,
THANK YOU! Very interesting. To answer your question, I really like (and miss) the relative freedom enjoyed in the USA regarding owning and using firearms. However, now that I think about it, I myself feel safer here. Maybe I need to read your statistics more carefully!! I don't really mind the more time consuming laws here.... fine with me, and I am respectful of them- but they did take some getting used to after growing up in the US

[RShaw]

Caferacer, Don....
Good points, all of them. Sets me to thinking once again....

[DonVoigt]

RShaw,
something else to think about.
The laws there treat your ownership and use as a privelege, which can be taken away by many.
In the US, it is still a "right" , enshrined in out Bill of Rights; accordingly it has been much more difficult to erode the right and hopefully even harder to eliminate it.

History is full of examples where a dis-armed citizenry were significantly abused.

End of soapbox speech.

[Caferacer]

The more freedom one has, the more risk one must accept
The "safest" place in the world is solitary confinement in a maximum security facility

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

RShaw,
something else to think about.

History is full of examples where a dis-armed citizenry were significantly abused.

End of soapbox speech.

One Adolf comes right to mind.

[Vlim]

The Dutch fire arms law (read: disarming the population) was initially introduced in 1919. The reason was the fear of a communist uprising, as had been the case on Russia and as almost succeeded in Germany.