Fine Erfurt 1917/1920 PS police luger with intact(repaired) mag safety

[DonVoigt]

Just received this one from an auction where it flew under the radar-
thanks to all who did not post a link to the auction!

It is a super condition 1917 Erfurt with the 1920 property stamp of the Weimar Republic. All parts are numbered matching - except the striker which has no number. The piece was re-finished in the day- likely when it went into police service or received its sear and magazine safety upgrades. No unit markings present.

Magazine is a replacement nickle/aluminum numbered matching and with */K on the lower spine. Both grips have a */K inside; the left grip has a large 91 also, and the mods for the mag safety; the right grip may be the original Erfurt grip with a smaller 91 present and a */K-perhaps struck over the original Erfurt inspection.

As mentioned in the title, the Walther designed magazine safety has been repaired and is operable as intended. While the repair is well executed, it is not a perfect representation of the original part. The "tab" that protrudes into the magazine well should be a little larger and rounded; but the repair suffices to show how the device was intended to work. A 1937 order was issued to remove all magazine safeties, as they were problematic in use, requiring very fine adjustment to work properly. Photos 4 & 5 show the mag safety installed and then partially removed by sliding down wards.

The magazine when inserted moves the arm outwards(photo 7 & 9), removing the tab from behind the trigger- allowing it to fire. When the magazine is removed, spring tension of the arm moves the tab into the empty mag well(photo 6), and the trigger tab behind the trigger- so that the trigger cannot be pulled far enough to release the sear(photo 8).

Very few original, un-altered magazine safeties have been found, as nearly all seem to have been removed in service. Sometimes just the tabs are removed, sometimes the end of the arm is clipped, sometimes the arm is clipped really short, and occasionally the arm is entirely removed leaving the slot empty, and even less frequently the slot is welded and spot refinished!

The Schwy sear safety(photo 3) is also present and operable, as are many other examples; these were never ordered removed in use.
The sear safety has a pin that locks the sear bar when the side plate is removed, so that the sear bar cannot be depressed when the "canon" is removed from the frame. This was installed due to un-intended discharges resulting from leaving a live round in the pistol when field stripped for cleaning.

I believe you can figure out the operation from the several pictures posted.

[DonVoigt]

Several more pictures of the pistol.

Last two are two views of the magazine safety when removed.

[kurusu]

Congratulations! It's a very interesting piece.


It's the first operating magazine safety that I see.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

A 1937 order was issued to remove all magazine safeties, as they were problematic in use, requiring very fine adjustment to work properly.

Don, have you found documentation indicating why the Walther safety was ordered removed or disabled? There has been a lot of speculation but, to my knowledge, no one has determined the reason(s) unequivocally.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Don M

Don, have you found documentation indicating why the Walther safety was ordered removed or disabled? There has been a lot of speculation but, to my knowledge, no one has determined the reason(s) unequivocally.

I'm not Don, but...According to Sturgess & Gortz, in Chapter 17 of TBLAP, "By order of the 'Reichs Leader SS and Chief of the German Police' of 27 May 1937, trigger safeties of any kind were to be disabled. This obviously referred to the Walther magazine safety".

[Lugerdoc]

Nice job of restoring a mag safety. Logically, these were removed as the spring lost it shape, it would continue to block the trigger, even with the mag installed. TH

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Don M

Don, have you found documentation indicating why the Walther safety was ordered removed or disabled? There has been a lot of speculation but, to my knowledge, no one has determined the reason(s) unequivocally.

No Don,
only your, Ed's, and Sturgess books; the comment about fine adjustment is my editorial comment.

The two tabs must be in near perfect adjustment(length), or the safety won't work correctly.

Not a great leap of intuition to see why they were a problem, but no
documentation.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I'm not Don, but...According to Sturgess & Gortz, in Chapter 17 of TBLAP, "By order of the 'Reichs Leader SS and Chief of the German Police' of 27 May 1937, trigger safeties of any kind were to be disabled. This obviously referred to the Walther magazine safety".

Don, I'm aware of this document but have never seen anything stating why these were determined to be undesirable. As I mentioned, a number of reasonable explanations have been offered but I know of no supporting period documentation or other confirmation. Your post stated they required "very fine adjustment to work properly" and I wondered if there was some documentation to support that.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Don M

Don, I'm aware of this document but have never seen anything stating why these were determined to be undesirable. As I mentioned, a number of reasonable explanations have been offered but I know of no supporting period documentation or other confirmation. Your post stated they required "very fine adjustment to work properly" and I wondered if there was some documentation to support that.

That is correct Don; they do require fine adjustment to work properly due to the design; even a slight difference in magazine dimensions will cause the safety to not release the trigger.

I'm not sure this is "other confirmation" you are looking for; but, as they used to say in math class- "the solution is obvious", or in this case the reason, IMHO.

[Jim Solomon]

Don, as a retired mathematics professor, I like the second part of the professor who states that the solution is obvious...he walks out of the class and returns 45 minutes later stating, yes, it is obvious.
Jim

[Don M]

I have seen several different reasons proposed over the years that also seemed obvious. Perhaps it was "all of the above." I just feel these should be presented as opinions rather than facts. Enough said!