Bakelite mag Question

lugercollector · 06-02-2003, 11:05 PM

I recently acquired a 1940 code 42 Luger, serial #49n....as captured in ww2....it has a black bakelite mag with the #49 stamped on the bottom....this gun has belonged to the same owner since captured by him from the 12th SS in Normandy 1944...has anyone else seen these mags numbered like this...Thanks..

Lugerdoc · 06-03-2003, 12:03 PM

The only FXO mags that I've seen and consider proper with numbered black plastic bottoms are some of the KU Kreighoff production. TH

lugercollector · 06-03-2003, 11:43 PM

Thanks for the reply Tom....will post some photos of the mag and rig in a day or two...Peter..

Lugerdoc · 06-04-2003, 10:10 AM

Peter, Does the serial number on the left receiver have a KU prefix or suffix? If so, please post photo, as this would justify your numbered BPB, as far as I'm concerned. TH

John D. · 06-04-2003, 10:48 AM

As Peter mentions he has a RIG - would it be possible to get a picture of the inside holster flap?

Also - I'm not sure why Ku are referred to as "Krieghoffs", as I've never seen any definative documentation saying these were produced, assembled or even reworked by HK? If, in theory - Mauser provided the frames/assy for the Ku Lugers, then I also don't think it's "impossible" to have a proper FXO mag stamped without the Ku prefix/suffix? For that, it would be interesting to see if the mag also has "+" stamped under the digets and/or whether the stamps on the FXO base are the same dies as used on the frame...

Not to open the "great" KU debate - but... Hmmmmm - actually, it would be interesting to perhaps open the discussion in this Forum, and see where it leads..??!!!

Best to all..!

John Sabato · 06-04-2003, 11:54 AM

Question: Isn't the bakelite bottom of the late FXO type extruded magazine brittle? Wouldn't stamping of numbers in this type bottom result in a high casualty rate when the bakelite shatters? I would think that if there are numbers found in this type of material that it would have to be be applied with a heat or melting process instead of an impact stamp...

Comments and opinions are solicited

Strider · 06-04-2003, 03:11 PM

Just to add to the discussion. Could these have been stamped before they completely hardened? Or were these made at some other place and sent to where the KU was assembled? Then I would have to agree with John about the heat process.

John Sabato · 06-04-2003, 03:43 PM

I believe that the mag bottoms, whether wood, metal or bakelite, were manufactured in batches and not pre-numbered. I base this on a couple of years of manufacturing and industrial engineering... It would be too labor instensive to track a pair of plastic pieces that were in no way unique except for the number...

They may even have been made by a sub-contractor and then taken to the final assembly point for the fitting of magazines to individual pistols. This is the only method that would make sense in manufacturing... Any other method that I could imagine would be counter productive.

Marvin · 06-05-2003, 08:15 AM

The Bakelite magazines are hot when they come from the mold, but they are still too brittle to take a stamp "hit" at this stage. the Pheonolic material is very hard and has a surface polish comensurate to the polish in the mold. I agree with John that the number had to have been applied with heat rather than striking the base.

My Ku Luger does not have a number magazines, can someone provide some slose-up photos of the marked base and we can "maybe" determine if they are stamped or the number was applied by heat. It should be obvious after looking at a few photos. Just a thought.

Marvin

Lugerdoc · 06-05-2003, 11:31 AM

The few numbered BP mag bottoms that I've seen, appear to be deeply "cut" into the plastic, rather than stamped. TH

John Sabato · 06-05-2003, 12:05 PM

Lugerdoc,

by "cut" do you mean scraped? or engraved (pantographed)? This could also be a possibility... and the font of the numbers would likely be different from the the numbers stamped on the gun IMHO.

Pete Ebbink · 06-05-2003, 10:43 PM

What about using the same number dies that are typically used for a strike/blow but heating up the number dies and then just pressing them against the bakelite phenolic ?

Just a wild as* guess, here...(in case Jan is reading... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Heinz · 06-05-2003, 10:59 PM

The pantograph method of cutting with a spinning mill-like cutter was in wide use in Germany at this time. Very effective on Bakelite, although I have not looked at on of these mags a look under a magnifer should reveal traces of rotary cutting, somewhat blurred by melting plastic

regards, heinz

lugercollector · 06-06-2003, 12:43 AM

Here are some photos of the Gun and Mag....the number is very lightly marked on the Mag....also there is no witness mark on the Barrel??...maybe the boys at the Factory had a couple of brews at lunch!!

lugercollector · 06-06-2003, 12:51 AM

More Photos

John Sabato · 06-06-2003, 11:51 AM

The photo becomes very pixelated when enlarged... the photo will need to be closer and in sharper focus to determine if the number was pantographed... I can't see any evidence of how this number was applied in this photo... even when I made it "negative" from normal colors.

There doesn't seem to be any meltover at the edges of the numbers if it was heat applied, and it doesn't look like a stamp... because it is not deep enough.

John D. · 06-06-2003, 01:26 PM

I'm trying to decipher the inside of the holster flap (I don't see a Ku stamp), but I think I see:

"Ob. gefr" (which stands for "obergefreiter", I believe) and the date (in european format) as: 7-11-44 or November 7, 1944... I can't really make out the rest of the inscriptions, but iperhaps this was retrieved sometime after the initial Normandy invasion (given the date), and there are several records of the 12th SS who certainly did play a major role during the invasion. Here is one such link for you:

12th SS Document....

John D. · 06-06-2003, 01:38 PM

Just to note......

I see you are from Canada - and it is noteworthy that it was primarily the Canadians who were embroiled with the 12th SS. Apparently - they learned to dispise each other to the point that: "The Canadians especially had a deep hatred for the young men of the 12th SS and there sometimes developed a situation quite similar to the Eastern Front where no quarter was given or expected by POWs from both sides..." (See source as link above).

Can you tell us the unit of the gentleman who captured this piece was in?

OUTSTANDING pictures!!!!!

Frank · 06-06-2003, 02:33 PM

I guess when it's BS, it's BS!! The pistol doesn't or shouldn't have a black bottom magazine, in the first place. The fact that it is serialized is at the least doubtful, unless it is a KU Luger (which it is not). Looks to me like it's a pig's ear trying to look like a silk purse!! But nice try!!

lugercollector · 06-06-2003, 05:54 PM

John...the Story that was told to me about this gun was exactly as you mentioned....apparently the prisoners own arms were turned on them by the Canadians(including this Luger and a p38 from the same owner).....the only flaw in the Story is the date on the holster??? I will try and find out which unit he was in.....Frank....I am just showing the gun as I purchased it...the n suffix was the last batch before byf 41s....I can verify the Guns History since 1945.... and I find it interesting and appreciate the discussion about it...perhaps the Factory tried numbering the mags and it did'nt work too well!!??....59 Years ago today, a lot of young men on both sides gave their lives in that Titanic struggle...Thank God that now we live in a time of relative peace and security!!!....as Arms enthusiasts(especially Lugers)....it sure is nice now to be able to play with and discuss these things without actually having to use them...or have them used against us.....Peter..(my 2 cents worth)

06-02-2003, 11:05 PM	#1
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	Bakelite mag Question I recently acquired a 1940 code 42 Luger, serial #49n....as captured in ww2....it has a black bakelite mag with the #49 stamped on the bottom....this gun has belonged to the same owner since captured by him from the 12th SS in Normandy 1944...has anyone else seen these mags numbered like this...Thanks..

06-03-2003, 12:03 PM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	The only FXO mags that I've seen and consider proper with numbered black plastic bottoms are some of the KU Kreighoff production. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

06-04-2003, 11:54 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Question: Isn't the bakelite bottom of the late FXO type extruded magazine brittle? Wouldn't stamping of numbers in this type bottom result in a high casualty rate when the bakelite shatters? I would think that if there are numbers found in this type of material that it would have to be be applied with a heat or melting process instead of an impact stamp... Comments and opinions are solicited __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-04-2003, 03:11 PM	#7
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just to add to the discussion. Could these have been stamped before they completely hardened? Or were these made at some other place and sent to where the KU was assembled? Then I would have to agree with John about the heat process. __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

06-04-2003, 03:43 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	I believe that the mag bottoms, whether wood, metal or bakelite, were manufactured in batches and not pre-numbered. I base this on a couple of years of manufacturing and industrial engineering... It would be too labor instensive to track a pair of plastic pieces that were in no way unique except for the number... They may even have been made by a sub-contractor and then taken to the final assembly point for the fitting of magazines to individual pistols. This is the only method that would make sense in manufacturing... Any other method that I could imagine would be counter productive. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-03-2003, 11:43 PM	#3
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	Thanks for the reply Tom....will post some photos of the mag and rig in a day or two...Peter..

06-04-2003, 10:10 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Peter, Does the serial number on the left receiver have a KU prefix or suffix? If so, please post photo, as this would justify your numbered BPB, as far as I'm concerned. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

06-04-2003, 10:48 AM	#5
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 478 Thanked 517 Times in 129 Posts	As Peter mentions he has a RIG - would it be possible to get a picture of the inside holster flap? Also - I'm not sure why Ku are referred to as "Krieghoffs", as I've never seen any definative documentation saying these were produced, assembled or even reworked by HK? If, in theory - Mauser provided the frames/assy for the Ku Lugers, then I also don't think it's "impossible" to have a proper FXO mag stamped without the Ku prefix/suffix? For that, it would be interesting to see if the mag also has "+" stamped under the digets and/or whether the stamps on the FXO base are the same dies as used on the frame... Not to open the "great" KU debate - but... Hmmmmm - actually, it would be interesting to perhaps open the discussion in this Forum, and see where it leads..??!!! Best to all..!

06-05-2003, 08:15 AM	#9
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The Bakelite magazines are hot when they come from the mold, but they are still too brittle to take a stamp "hit" at this stage. the Pheonolic material is very hard and has a surface polish comensurate to the polish in the mold. I agree with John that the number had to have been applied with heat rather than striking the base. My Ku Luger does not have a number magazines, can someone provide some slose-up photos of the marked base and we can "maybe" determine if they are stamped or the number was applied by heat. It should be obvious after looking at a few photos. Just a thought. Marvin

06-05-2003, 11:31 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	The few numbered BP mag bottoms that I've seen, appear to be deeply "cut" into the plastic, rather than stamped. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

06-05-2003, 12:05 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Lugerdoc, by "cut" do you mean scraped? or engraved (pantographed)? This could also be a possibility... and the font of the numbers would likely be different from the the numbers stamped on the gun IMHO. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-05-2003, 10:43 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	What about using the same number dies that are typically used for a strike/blow but heating up the number dies and then just pressing them against the bakelite phenolic ? Just a wild as* guess, here...(in case Jan is reading... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-05-2003, 10:59 PM	#13
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	The pantograph method of cutting with a spinning mill-like cutter was in wide use in Germany at this time. Very effective on Bakelite, although I have not looked at on of these mags a look under a magnifer should reveal traces of rotary cutting, somewhat blurred by melting plastic regards, heinz

06-06-2003, 12:43 AM	#14
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	Here are some photos of the Gun and Mag....the number is very lightly marked on the Mag....also there is no witness mark on the Barrel??...maybe the boys at the Factory had a couple of brews at lunch!!

06-06-2003, 12:51 AM	#15
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	More Photos

06-06-2003, 11:51 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	The photo becomes very pixelated when enlarged... the photo will need to be closer and in sharper focus to determine if the number was pantographed... I can't see any evidence of how this number was applied in this photo... even when I made it "negative" from normal colors. There doesn't seem to be any meltover at the edges of the numbers if it was heat applied, and it doesn't look like a stamp... because it is not deep enough. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-06-2003, 01:26 PM	#17
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 478 Thanked 517 Times in 129 Posts	I'm trying to decipher the inside of the holster flap (I don't see a Ku stamp), but I think I see: "Ob. gefr" (which stands for "obergefreiter", I believe) and the date (in european format) as: 7-11-44 or November 7, 1944... I can't really make out the rest of the inscriptions, but iperhaps this was retrieved sometime after the initial Normandy invasion (given the date), and there are several records of the 12th SS who certainly did play a major role during the invasion. Here is one such link for you: 12th SS Document....

06-06-2003, 01:38 PM	#18
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 478 Thanked 517 Times in 129 Posts	Just to note...... I see you are from Canada - and it is noteworthy that it was primarily the Canadians who were embroiled with the 12th SS. Apparently - they learned to dispise each other to the point that: "The Canadians especially had a deep hatred for the young men of the 12th SS and there sometimes developed a situation quite similar to the Eastern Front where no quarter was given or expected by POWs from both sides..." (See source as link above). Can you tell us the unit of the gentleman who captured this piece was in? OUTSTANDING pictures!!!!!

06-06-2003, 02:33 PM	#19
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	I guess when it's BS, it's BS!! The pistol doesn't or shouldn't have a black bottom magazine, in the first place. The fact that it is serialized is at the least doubtful, unless it is a KU Luger (which it is not). Looks to me like it's a pig's ear trying to look like a silk purse!! But nice try!!

06-06-2003, 05:54 PM	#20
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	John...the Story that was told to me about this gun was exactly as you mentioned....apparently the prisoners own arms were turned on them by the Canadians(including this Luger and a p38 from the same owner).....the only flaw in the Story is the date on the holster??? I will try and find out which unit he was in.....Frank....I am just showing the gun as I purchased it...the n suffix was the last batch before byf 41s....I can verify the Guns History since 1945.... and I find it interesting and appreciate the discussion about it...perhaps the Factory tried numbering the mags and it did'nt work too well!!??....59 Years ago today, a lot of young men on both sides gave their lives in that Titanic struggle...Thank God that now we live in a time of relative peace and security!!!....as Arms enthusiasts(especially Lugers)....it sure is nice now to be able to play with and discuss these things without actually having to use them...or have them used against us.....Peter..(my 2 cents worth)