Rest In Peace, George...

[sheepherder]

...Wherever you are!

[DavidJayUden]

?
dju

[hayhugh]

What the..............

[alanint]

Ok, headcount of all our Georges!

[DonVoigt]

Maybe it is George Luger's birth day or something.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Maybe it is George Luger's birth day or something.

Nope... Georg Johann Luger (March 6, 1849 – December 22, 1923): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Luger

My vote goes to General Custer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...Little_Bighorn

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Olle

My vote goes to General Custer

Yup. 140 years ago today...

[Douglas Jr.]

Do you think this is legit:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...-george-custer

Douglas.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Douglas Jr.

Do you think this is legit:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...-george-custer

Douglas.

Hard to say, but TCM viewed the 1941 Errol Flynn movie "They Died With Their Boots On" a few days ago and the final scene showed 'Custer' with a pair of Remington revolvers. I was surprised to see Anthony Quinn as Crazy Horse; I didn't realize he was that old.

I suppose the movie prop department could have looked up Custer's predilection for Remingtons...

The one in the auction has a curiously cut-away loading lever...I once owned an old original cap & ball Remington .44, it was huge and heavy...

[cirelaw]

Thank God it was none of our Georges!!!

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Hard to say, but TCM viewed the 1941 Errol Flynn movie "They Died With Their Boots On" a few days ago and the final scene showed 'Custer' with a pair of Remington revolvers. I was surprised to see Anthony Quinn as Crazy Horse; I didn't realize he was that old.

I suppose the movie prop department could have looked up Custer's predilection for Remingtons...

The one in the auction has a curiously cut-away loading lever...I once owned an old original cap & ball Remington .44, it was huge and heavy...

That's because it's a Remington-Beals.

Anyway, G.A.C. had at one time or another almost anything that went Bang! I have a picture of him with a Colt Roots revolver during is West Point days. So, that Remington-Beals may very well be legit.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by kurusu

That's because it's a Remington-Beals.

A conversion, yes. The barrel looks shorter too. The auction also mentions it is a converted 'Navy' Remington. I didn't see anything like that in the short time I looked.

Watching the movie made me wonder what happened to the guidon, the pistols/carbines, canteens, etc. Sitting Bull's people must have salvaged anything they could use. It's strange that more hasn't turned up over the years. Some is on display in various museums and collections, but the bulk of the equipment seems to have remained undiscovered...

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Thank God it was none of our Georges!!!

There is no way I would ever hear about a member of this forum. I don't know any, and none live near me.

[Edward Tinker]

well, it was a bit before they were found and any gear would have been taken by the Indians, so provenance would be hard to prove. Lots of gear claimed to be 7th stuff. I find the story fascinating but not really LT Colonol Custer. He lost a bunch of family members that day. His brother was a two time Medal of Honor recipient.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

A conversion, yes. The barrel looks shorter too. The auction also mentions it is a converted 'Navy' Remington. I didn't see anything like that in the short time I looked.

Nope. It's got nothing to do with being a conversion. The Remington-Beals was the predecessor of the most recognized Remington Army and Navy models of the 1861 pattern. That loading lever is original and so is the 7,5 barrel, standard for the Navy model.

[sheepherder]

Mario. here's a Beals conversion you should appreciate...

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Pisto...20Gallery.html

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Pisto...REVOLVER..html



I hope those come out...The URL's look funky...

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I find the story fascinating but not really LT Colonol Custer. He lost a bunch of family members that day. His brother was a two time Medal of Honor recipient.

I read that!

http://www.history.com/topics/native...little-bighorn

Several members ofGeorge Armstrong Custer's family were also killed at the Battle of the Little Bighorn, including two of his brothers, his brother-in-law and a nephew.

[George Anderson]

Custer got what he deserved.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Mario. here's a Beals conversion you should appreciate...

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Pisto...20Gallery.html

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Pisto...REVOLVER..html



I hope those come out...The URL's look funky...

Wow! I did not know that conversion. Thanks.

It's the most complicated conversion I've ever seen.

[K.Wilhelm]

Perhaps, as George says, Custer did deserve his fate for: failing to listen to his scouts about the size of the enemy force he was dealing with; dividing his force into three; failing to bring up his two Gatling guns; and generally being a glory hound. But did his men deserve to share this fate?

Also, I have read that while Custer did have several different types of revolvers, he was carrying a pair of English made ones (I forget the name) that day. Bill

[Desperado]

While taking a road trip on my Harley, up to Billings, Montana, Glacier Park, etc, I had the luck of touring the National Park at Little Bighorn.

I say luck because I was lucky to have the Park Ranger that I had to explain what we were seeing. He was a history major, had been there for years and enjoyed his job. He explained what happened at the Little Bighorn in a way not seen in the jokes, TV and radio commercials and even history books.

I'm doing this all from memory so please excuse (and correct) any errors. This will be a little different approach to what you have always heard. I have no documentation except the Park Ranger's word - and he had studied it for the last 20 plus years and had the education and resources available to him to be able to study it right. Unfortunately, I don't even remember his name.

He started out by saying "There were no 'good guys' and no 'bad guys' at the Battle of the Little Bighorn, just three different cultures that came into conflict." He also said that Custer never intended to "wipe out all the indians", as you often hear. His charge was to hold them in place until the main body of troops could arrive and escort them back to the reservation.

The three cultures were the Lakota Sioux indians, the Crow indians and the US Calvary.

The Lakota had a treaty with the US Government that allowed them to "follow the buffalo wherever they might roam". The Lakota were a nomadic people whose very survival depended upon the buffalo. They depended upon the buffalo for meat for food, bones and other parts for tools and weapons, and hides for clothing and housing. Being nomadic, they were not interested in being confined on a reservation and their treaty said that they didn't have to be.

The Little Bighorn was on Crow land. The Crow were afraid of the Lakota because they were more numerous and more war-like, so they wanted them off the Crow land. To accomplish this, they agreed to be scouts for the US Army. As part of their pay, the Crow warriors were allowed to keep all of the Lakota horses they could steal.

The Army had received orders to escort the Lakota back to the reservation. They had left before - to follow the buffalo - and had been brought back before.

Lt Col Custer, who had been a brevet General in the Civil War was rankled at being returned to his original rank of Lt. Col after the hostilities ceased, was a part of a larger contingent of troops led by
General Alfred Terry. Having received scouting reports that the Lakota were camped by the Little Bighorn, Gen Terry dispatched a contingent of men, commanded by Lt Col Custer to speed forward and hold the Lakota in place until the slower moving main body could get there.

Upon approaching Custer discovered he had poor intelligence. Instead of the small group they were expecting, they encountered over 8000 men, women, and children and more importantly, over 2000 of those were warriors but he didn't know this in time to change his battle plan - the battle had already started.

Custer had divided his troops, a point that is discussed until this day. According to the Park Ranger, this was reasonable. With their supply train, although they could move faster than the main body, they were still too slow to get there before the Indians dispersed. Custer ordered Capt. Benteen to stay with the supply train and bring it forward as fast as possible, while he and Major Reno split to "surround" the camp, one going left, the other right. On previous engagements, when approached from the front, the Indians would slip out the back and scatter, leaving no groups to "round up", only an individual here and there. Custer was trying to prevent this.

Major Reno's troops were discovered by Indian scouts and attacked by a numerically superior force. About this time, Custer sent a runner to Capt. Benteen to bring the supply wagons to him with all possible haste. In route, Capt. Benteen encountered Major Reno's troops, in full retreat. Major Reno implored Capt. Benteen to stop and help them or else Reno's troops would all be slaughtered. Capt. Benteen did so instead of following his orders from Custer.

Custer meanwhile had taken the high ground and was able to hold the Indians off. The cavalry had the breach loading Sharp's rifle (I think it was Sharp's) which was accurate at greater range than the Henry repeaters used by the Indians. That worked until Custer's troops ran out of ammunition. By the time Capt. Benteen helped Major Reno, there were too many Indians between Benteen and Custer and it was not possible for him to get to Custer with the ammunition on the supply wagons - the reason Custer had ordered him to come with all haste in the first place. The Indians knew when the soldiers quit firing at them that it was time for the final attack.

There are volumes of material written on "Custer's last stand". Some written by people who know what they are talking about and some just writing their opinions. It happened so quickly that accurate information is probably impossible to get, as one knowledgeable source pointed out. There is information from both "sides" - Army and Indian.

Popular press will condemn Custer for "the military blunder of dividing his troops" although given his orders to hold the Indians, the history of them scattering when approached, and his bad information as to how many "hostiles" he was facing, it really wasn't that unreasonable according to the Park Ranger.

Of course popular press will also tell you: "There were no survivors" at the Battle of the Little Bighorn" which we know is not true. As one guy I went to college with used to like to say, "That's simply not true. Most of my people survived." But from what I've just outlined, it is also obvious that much of Major Reno's troops survived and most of Capt. Benteen's men survived, and of course, all of the main body (Gen Terry's troops) survived because they were not at that engagement.

There's lots of information and misinformation on this battle, but its lots more complicated than just writing Custer off as a poor commander who got all his troops killed.

[sheepherder]

I was unable to find any Mathew Brady-type photos of the engagement, but there is a historic painting of reinforcements rushing to Custer's aid...

Oops - wrong reinforcements...