Big Time Russian Price...

Pete Ebbink · 01-19-2003, 12:19 PM

Nearly $ 16K asking...WOW !!!

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976282867.htm

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 01-19-2003, 03:34 PM

I wonder who certified it? Keep those Russian prices going up - sure beats the stock market!

Hugh · 01-20-2003, 12:55 PM

Here's my Russian, and it wasn't that expensive!

Big Norm · 01-20-2003, 03:10 PM

I have many chances to buy a Russian Luger in the high four figure $'s. But they were all restored. I would never pay that much for a restored luger whose price depends on some simple markings. There are just too many counterfeiters out there who are very good at their craft. Frankly, that is one of the reasons why I have pretty well stuck to Imperial Era Lugers. They are easier to evaluate than other eras. Some wise warnings that I received on the 1904 navy Luger have stuck with me and I have avoided those few-of-a-kind Lugers.
Big Norm

schwob · 01-20-2003, 05:00 PM

Thor, your Jewel looks beautiful. The other "Russian", well I think someone has been into the cooking vodka...big tyme. Norm has the right idea, to which I subscribe. I have only Imperial Era Lugers. Keap smylin'....

Big Norm · 01-21-2003, 12:42 PM

Schwob,
yah, after I achieved my goal on artilleries and almost on navies, I started looking at Kieghoffs and I quickly learned about altering and redoing. I would have know a lot more than I do to venture into the really rare stuff. I paid big bucks for a Borchardt and I didn't sleep well until I had it evaluated by someone I felt knew more than I did. When I pay $5000 plus for a gun, I want to know that I am dealing with someone reputable. And those kind of people are hard to find.
Big Norm

Navy · 01-21-2003, 02:01 PM

Norm et al,

I agree very strongly with you all on the requirement to be super cautious on rare pieces. I have made it a point the last several years to know the provenance of each ava raris I acquire. The '04 I purchased last year was a known gun that I had been after for 10 years; the seller was a well known and well respected COLLECTOR with whom I had many very satisfactory dealings-a mint 02 Carbine for example.
However, in the final analysis, it all comes down to who do you trust more with your money: yourself or a committee?
I have gotten to the point, (and perhaps I am letting arrogance show) that I think my "eye" and expertise within a *narrow* range of Lugers is equal to that of anyones. Consequently, I tend to trust my own judgment more than others. We all make mistakes and, hopefully, we learn from them. I know I have and did. And I hope all my mistakes are in the past!

Tom A.

schwob · 01-21-2003, 05:02 PM

Norm & Tom, I am in full agreement. I purchased a Carbine, paid a good amount of money for it, purchased from a reputable dealer, and sleep very well at night. I classify a purchased like this as, good money well spent. Buy thebest, you can't go wrong...

Navy · 01-21-2003, 07:42 PM

Schwob..

Amen, brother! Hope it isn't too cold up there 'cause its bitter here in the Old Dominion.

Tom A.

Big Norm · 01-21-2003, 09:07 PM

Tom,
don't worry about arrogance. I had you, among others, when I mentioned "people who know more than me". You saved me a bundle of $'s on a 1904 navy. I won't forget and I copied all of our emails. The trouble is that, although I am growing in expertise thanks to the forum, I still get emotional when I see something that I like. Talking to someone helps to bring me down to reality. Surprisingly, sometimes, the person that I talk to does not have to be all that good for me to do a reality check.
Big Norm

Silvereagle29 · 01-31-2003, 09:16 PM

First of all, I wouldn't touch a 1904 Navy for any price. I agree, Just too many are not real pistols and I don't know the good from the bad. As for 1906 Russians, I also agree, they are mostly restored. On the other hand, I have never heard of a Phoney 1906 Russian, have you? If any of you guys know of a phoney please tell me about it. I own a restored 1906 Russian. but I personally had it restored because it was a "dog" when I purchased it, as most were. The pistol came back from WW-11 with a Seattle Doctor. The gun was in his estate when he passed away and I was lucky enough to buy it. I can tell for sure, they were not "out to lunch" on the value. I spent another $2000 to have it professionally restored. Anyway you want to look at it, the gun is extremely rare and I like it. Personally, I don't have a problem with any very rare restored Luger, As long as the pistol is represented as such. Think about it, a restored rare piece is better than none. Personally, I do like Mauser WW-11 Navy Lugers much better. Good collecting.
Don

Big Norm · 02-01-2003, 08:08 PM

Don,
I have to agree that I have never seen a counterfeit 1906 Russian. But I have seen counterfeit navies, artilleries, Krieghoffs and others. Shattucks well known counterfeit 1941 Krieghoff is a fine example of how even an expert can be fooled. Personally, I can not see why a 1906 Russian would be considered so sacred that it could not or would not be counterfeited. Restoration can help to easily mask the art work of talented unscruplous sellers. The very thing that makes rare guns expensive is that they can not easily be compared to the real thing.
Big Norm

Navy · 02-02-2003, 04:58 AM

I know of at least *one* fake 06 Ruskie. It is a very, very good job and without micrometer measurement of certain areas on the piece, it would be impossible to detect the fakery. But fake it is. As far as fake 04 Navies, I have photographs of two pieces being manufactured in the early 1970s. Fortunately, their SNs are visible. The pictures show the pieces in various stages of their manufacture and are quite revealing.
Tom A

Big Norm · 02-02-2003, 02:21 PM

This will be a little off topic but it is something that has bothered me for a couple of months. So forgive me.

At the last OGCA in Milan there was a guy selling a model 1914 navy Luger. His price was $2000 so it was certainly worth a look see. A quick examination revealed that not only was the gun altered it was illegal. The serial number on the front of the frame was clearly altered to make it match the rest of the parts. This is against federal law. There was a guy standing nearby who was seriouly considering buying it and I showed him the discrepencies. I saved this guy and I feel good about that. But I was also standing in front of the individual who did the deed. I didn't say anything, but I wonder to this day if I should have mouthed off to that person. For forum members who are also members of OGCA, the individual that I am talking about has a table next to the door of the second building. He also had a restored 1906 Navy that I didn't bother to look too closely at. If he is willing to commit a criminal act on one gun, he'll do it on another.

There, I got that off of my chest and it made me feel a little better.
Big Norm

Navy · 02-03-2003, 03:29 AM

Hi Norm,

You have, IMHO, no legal or moral obligation to point out to another adult that they are: 1. Committing a criminal act and 2. Endangering our hobby. You do have a moral obligation to inform others of the identity of this *wonderful* guy...its like warning people of any danger of which you have knowledge.

BATF will get this guy sooner or later on the legal issues; but it would be nice for the laws of economics to get him first.

Tom A.

Big Norm · 02-04-2003, 07:24 AM

Tom,
I thought about getting the guys card and the 'new' serial number of the gun and publishing it on the forum. But then I thought that I might get the forum in trouble so I did not do it. I even wondered about telling the location of the guys table at the show. The guy has a choise location and I am sure that there are guys on this forum who go to that show, I figure that this is as far as I can go without dragging the forum into something unsuspecting.
Big Norm

01-19-2003, 12:19 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Big Time Russian Price... Nearly $ 16K asking...WOW !!! http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976282867.htm Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

01-19-2003, 03:34 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	I wonder who certified it? Keep those Russian prices going up - sure beats the stock market! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-20-2003, 12:55 PM	#3
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Here's my Russian, and it wasn't that expensive! __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

01-20-2003, 03:10 PM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I have many chances to buy a Russian Luger in the high four figure $'s. But they were all restored. I would never pay that much for a restored luger whose price depends on some simple markings. There are just too many counterfeiters out there who are very good at their craft. Frankly, that is one of the reasons why I have pretty well stuck to Imperial Era Lugers. They are easier to evaluate than other eras. Some wise warnings that I received on the 1904 navy Luger have stuck with me and I have avoided those few-of-a-kind Lugers. Big Norm

01-20-2003, 05:00 PM	#5
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thor, your Jewel looks beautiful. The other "Russian", well I think someone has been into the cooking vodka...big tyme. Norm has the right idea, to which I subscribe. I have only Imperial Era Lugers. Keap smylin'....

01-21-2003, 12:42 PM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Schwob, yah, after I achieved my goal on artilleries and almost on navies, I started looking at Kieghoffs and I quickly learned about altering and redoing. I would have know a lot more than I do to venture into the really rare stuff. I paid big bucks for a Borchardt and I didn't sleep well until I had it evaluated by someone I felt knew more than I did. When I pay $5000 plus for a gun, I want to know that I am dealing with someone reputable. And those kind of people are hard to find. Big Norm

01-21-2003, 02:01 PM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Norm et al, I agree very strongly with you all on the requirement to be super cautious on rare pieces. I have made it a point the last several years to know the provenance of each ava raris I acquire. The '04 I purchased last year was a known gun that I had been after for 10 years; the seller was a well known and well respected COLLECTOR with whom I had many very satisfactory dealings-a mint 02 Carbine for example. However, in the final analysis, it all comes down to who do you trust more with your money: yourself or a committee? I have gotten to the point, (and perhaps I am letting arrogance show) that I think my "eye" and expertise within a narrow range of Lugers is equal to that of anyones. Consequently, I tend to trust my own judgment more than others. We all make mistakes and, hopefully, we learn from them. I know I have and did. And I hope all my mistakes are in the past! Tom A.

01-21-2003, 05:02 PM	#8
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Norm & Tom, I am in full agreement. I purchased a Carbine, paid a good amount of money for it, purchased from a reputable dealer, and sleep very well at night. I classify a purchased like this as, good money well spent. Buy thebest, you can't go wrong...

01-21-2003, 07:42 PM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Schwob.. Amen, brother! Hope it isn't too cold up there 'cause its bitter here in the Old Dominion. Tom A.

01-21-2003, 09:07 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom, don't worry about arrogance. I had you, among others, when I mentioned "people who know more than me". You saved me a bundle of $'s on a 1904 navy. I won't forget and I copied all of our emails. The trouble is that, although I am growing in expertise thanks to the forum, I still get emotional when I see something that I like. Talking to someone helps to bring me down to reality. Surprisingly, sometimes, the person that I talk to does not have to be all that good for me to do a reality check. Big Norm

01-31-2003, 09:16 PM	#11
Silvereagle29 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 105 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	First of all, I wouldn't touch a 1904 Navy for any price. I agree, Just too many are not real pistols and I don't know the good from the bad. As for 1906 Russians, I also agree, they are mostly restored. On the other hand, I have never heard of a Phoney 1906 Russian, have you? If any of you guys know of a phoney please tell me about it. I own a restored 1906 Russian. but I personally had it restored because it was a "dog" when I purchased it, as most were. The pistol came back from WW-11 with a Seattle Doctor. The gun was in his estate when he passed away and I was lucky enough to buy it. I can tell for sure, they were not "out to lunch" on the value. I spent another $2000 to have it professionally restored. Anyway you want to look at it, the gun is extremely rare and I like it. Personally, I don't have a problem with any very rare restored Luger, As long as the pistol is represented as such. Think about it, a restored rare piece is better than none. Personally, I do like Mauser WW-11 Navy Lugers much better. Good collecting. Don

02-01-2003, 08:08 PM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Don, I have to agree that I have never seen a counterfeit 1906 Russian. But I have seen counterfeit navies, artilleries, Krieghoffs and others. Shattucks well known counterfeit 1941 Krieghoff is a fine example of how even an expert can be fooled. Personally, I can not see why a 1906 Russian would be considered so sacred that it could not or would not be counterfeited. Restoration can help to easily mask the art work of talented unscruplous sellers. The very thing that makes rare guns expensive is that they can not easily be compared to the real thing. Big Norm

02-02-2003, 04:58 AM	#13
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I know of at least one fake 06 Ruskie. It is a very, very good job and without micrometer measurement of certain areas on the piece, it would be impossible to detect the fakery. But fake it is. As far as fake 04 Navies, I have photographs of two pieces being manufactured in the early 1970s. Fortunately, their SNs are visible. The pictures show the pieces in various stages of their manufacture and are quite revealing. Tom A

02-02-2003, 02:21 PM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	This will be a little off topic but it is something that has bothered me for a couple of months. So forgive me. At the last OGCA in Milan there was a guy selling a model 1914 navy Luger. His price was $2000 so it was certainly worth a look see. A quick examination revealed that not only was the gun altered it was illegal. The serial number on the front of the frame was clearly altered to make it match the rest of the parts. This is against federal law. There was a guy standing nearby who was seriouly considering buying it and I showed him the discrepencies. I saved this guy and I feel good about that. But I was also standing in front of the individual who did the deed. I didn't say anything, but I wonder to this day if I should have mouthed off to that person. For forum members who are also members of OGCA, the individual that I am talking about has a table next to the door of the second building. He also had a restored 1906 Navy that I didn't bother to look too closely at. If he is willing to commit a criminal act on one gun, he'll do it on another. There, I got that off of my chest and it made me feel a little better. Big Norm

02-03-2003, 03:29 AM	#15
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Norm, You have, IMHO, no legal or moral obligation to point out to another adult that they are: 1. Committing a criminal act and 2. Endangering our hobby. You do have a moral obligation to inform others of the identity of this wonderful guy...its like warning people of any danger of which you have knowledge. BATF will get this guy sooner or later on the legal issues; but it would be nice for the laws of economics to get him first. Tom A.

02-04-2003, 07:24 AM	#16
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom, I thought about getting the guys card and the 'new' serial number of the gun and publishing it on the forum. But then I thought that I might get the forum in trouble so I did not do it. I even wondered about telling the location of the guys table at the show. The guy has a choise location and I am sure that there are guys on this forum who go to that show, I figure that this is as far as I can go without dragging the forum into something unsuspecting. Big Norm