Mauser Banner Commercial serial numbers

[Geo99]

Hello all,

I was thinking of buying this gun, because it looks like a good deal. But first I have been trying to learn about Mauser Banner commercial Lugers so I don't make a mistake. There is not a lot of information out there, even on the Luger forums. I did read that Mauser Banner commercial Lugers have a "v" suffix. Is that true?

The gun: http://www.ggrelics.com/postWWI.html

Here is the description:
32.. LUGER, 1934 MAUSER BANNER COMMERCIAL, 4"..9 m/m..#3286.."Crown U" (proper on barrel, receiver & toggle).."P-08" on left side of Frame (proper)..Comes w/proper sharp walnut grips & mag..blue 99%.."These Commercial Mausers are of the highest quality for their era of Production and are quite rare," pg. 260, Lugers at Random by Kenyon. Reported in 595-4594 (no suffix) SN range on pg 20, "Third Reich Lugers" By Still $ 2,195.

This description says "no suffix", but I know Kenyon is prone to errors. So is that statement correct or a mistake?

More to the point, do all 1934 Mauser Banner Commercials have to have the v suffix or not?

If they do, then what do you think above is? (I know - no pictures, but what can I do? The seller will not provide them).
I contacted the seller but they have not gotten back to me.
Don't know if it is even still an active site.

Thanks,
George

[William Hull]

George,
I can't make a comment about the pistol, but good luck with the seller. He's a little hardheaded and arrogant. He seems to think its easier for you to return the pistol than him to take pictures. Beware that his finish rating has been questioned before. My advice, is if you can, meet him at a gun show to inspect the pistol. This pistol has been listed for quite awhile on his site.
William

[Mike B]

Greetings,
I have purchased the Luger you are referring to. I just unpacked it and to my surprise, the Luger is virtually new. ALL the numbers match including the grips. The mag is a proper fxo37 with an unmarked bottom. As stated, the serial number is 3286 with no suffix. The chamber is not marked. P08 is stamped on the left side. I just got off the phone with Don Hallock and asked what kind of Luger this is. He told me it was built by the French First Army after they took control of the Mauser factory at Oberndorf. They built approximately 3000 Lugers with parts that were then available. This Luger is crown u proofed on the left side of the receiver, the underside of the barrel and on the breach block. On page 600 of his book, he gives the serial number of the Lugers that were built. The last serial number of record in his book is 3033; this pistol is probably one the very last Lugers built by the French as the serial number 3286 extends his estimate by a few Lugers. I must say that I very happy I decided to buy this Luger; it is a very interesting addition to my collection.

Mike

BTW: The gentleman referred to in the preceding post is Gil Hoffman. As stated, he does seem a bit arrogant at times and does not do pictures. With that being said, I have purchased several Lugers from Gil over the past several years. He is kind and caring now that he knows me. As a matter of fact, he will come off his listed price quite a bit if pressed a bit.

[CJS57]

Nice find! Pictures please! Also are there unusual characteristics, such as blued small parts inside the gun that were normally in the white? Trigger lever, toggle connector, firing pin etc.?

[Mike B]

Photos added. To CJS57,
The "white" you are referring to is common to any Luger that is rust blued. The rust bluing process ceased in early 1937. After that date, all Mauser Lugers were dip blued. Also called salt blued or chemical blue. When using this process, the inside that is normally white in a rust blue process is blued along with the rest of the pistol.

Mike

[mrerick]

Mike,

I really like these very late Mauser Lugers. You have a nice one there...

There are interesting things about the salt bluing on these very late Mauser related Lugers.

I have two. One that I have that is pristine sn 715g with a "42" date and Banner toggle. It is military proofed. The other is 7152g with a "42" date, "byf" toggle and military proofing.



715g has the front of the barrel blued, and the pin internal to the trigger plate (that retains the trigger lever) blued. The pin is broken off at the plate, and the end is blued.




7152g has this pin blued also. The inside of 7152g's trigger plate is not numbered (which Don an Joop have observed).

715g is so crisp, that I doubt it was redone, even though normally in the white areas are blued. It's more likely something put together at the end of, or after the war.

So, a couple of questions...

Is the front of your barrel in the white, or salt blued?

Is the pin inside the trigger plate in the white or salt blued?

Marc

[Mike B]

Hi Marc,
Nice to hear from you again. Congratulations on your two Banners; very nice. To answer your questions:

1) The muzzle appears to have been blued, however it is worn somewhat, so the appearance is somewhere between blue and white; kind of a dirty white.

2) The pin is blued.

Mike

[Geo99]

Mike B - for $2200, you stole that gun - I shouda taken a chance on it!

Am I kicking myself? You bet!

You're welcome,
Geo

PS> thanks for sharing it with us.

[mrerick]

Mike,

Thanks for the update. It looks like this late in Luger production, Oberndorf must have streamlined the finishing process.

It's good confirmation that 715g is probably as it left the factory.

Marc

[Mike B]

I know this is an old post, but I have been studying the Mauser book in the French Mauser section. This has renewed my interest in finding out more about this Luger especially why a Crown U proof on a Luger that was produce in 1945 or 1946; seven years after the last crown U was used. It is a matter of good fortune for me and all that Joop came back to the forum. I asked him the same questions. Here is his reply:

Hello Mike,

Until now there have no Crown/U proofed pistols emerged from the French controlled production. Yours is the first one I see. The pistol looks fine to me; its appearances fit nicely into the consistent properties of the "French" production of 1946.

So why this lonely C/U in stead of the usual Eagle/N? First of all we must remember that the Crown/U proof was only used on commercial and Police Lugers until 15 January 1940. From that date on the Eagle/N was used. None of the hundreds of 1940-1942 dated pistols I examined showed a C/U proof.

When the French occupied the Mauser factory, they urged the workers there to assemble weapons from the stock of parts that were available in the factory at that time. There was no new production of grip frames or receivers - the assembly halted when the stock of parts was exhausted in 1946.

We know also that the proof stamp was applied in the factory, civilians of the German Proofhouse system came to Oberndorf, unlocked a cabinet holding the proof stamps and applied this on the weapons that had passed the pressure test firing and the accuracy test firing.
I doubt that someone amused himself by using the then 5 years obsolete C/U for just one pistol.

In our book on page 599 you will find the five variations of proof stamps we found on the French Luger pistols. Please read the text at Variation 5: "(one observed) date '41'on the chamber, S/42 on toggle".
This fifth variation is also mentioned on Page 600, Table 34.03. You will notice that the serial numbers of this variation are above # 3000 - just the last pistols that were assembled.
In view of the fact that we find here also a pistol having a S/42 on the toggle (made until mid 1939) it seems probable that also the very last parts from the stock were used. So it might well be that there was also a receiver having the old C/U stamp - it was simply used, and no need to add an E/N stamp.

Your pistol is one of the 50 last produced. I think that when some more of this bunch emerge we would find more mixed markings.

I hope this helps,
Best regards

Here is bit more information from Joop:

Just one more thought: We know that the French used a part of the 1945-46 Luger production for the war in Vietnam (Dien Bien Phoe). But after that they switched to the French P-50 pistol, and the Luger pistols were stored in an Armory. In 1955 some 1,000 were transferred to the new Austrian Bundes Heer. So many of these pistols were simply never issued to armed forces. It explains why there are so many pristine looking pistols in this lot.

Joop

[Kri 1942]

I am originally from the study of the production of P 08, the firm Mauser, in 1945-1946 ... And, indeed, after the assembly of the 3300 P 08, Germany, wagons parts of weapons arrived in France with Saint Etienne and Mulhouse, or Lugers were assembled new, officially ... or not!

Joël

[Dick Herman]

Does anyone know where to buy copy of "The Mauser Parabellum 1930 - 1946"?

[Mike B]

Greetings Dick,
Call Don Hallock @ 425-681-6404 (cell) or 360-876-1563 or 702-270-9821. Last number is his winter number.
Hope this helps,

Mike

[Lugerdoc]

Mike B, I recently picked up some interesting parts; all unnumbered, C/U/U proofed and in like new condition: P08 7.65mm barrelled receiver and complete Mauser Banner toggle assy. Since they are not military, I doubt that they came from a depot or armor's repair chest. Any ideals? Tom

[CJS57]

How about factory replacement parts that were never used but liberated in 1945?

[Mike B]

Tom,
I have had the privilege and the honor of speaking by phone to Don Hallock and by email with Joop van de Kant about my Mauser banner that is crown U proofed and came out of the Manuser factory in Orbendorf. If you have had the occasion of reading the article in their book that starts on page 593, you will agree that this is a very interesting and informative article. When the French army occupied the Mauser factory, the army allowed the German workers to continue working until they are sent home days later. At that point the French solders took over the assembly of weapons only from existing parts left over in the factory. NO new parts were manufactured. This continued until all the parts were exhausted. However that was supposed to be with serial number 3000 in the Luger production. Mine is 3286. It is my understanding that when the proof man was called in to stamp the assembled weapons he notice mine had already been stamped with crown U stamp years before so no need to proof it again. THAT begs the question: how many more parts were still in the factory or in route to the factory. I think it completely feasible to state there were probable "buckets" of various parts in the factory. This probably made for easy picking when the US troops arrived.
Or, there was a train loaded with parts and machinery that was removed from the factory in Orbendorf in route to the small town of Kufstein in southeast Germany. The train was attacked during a air raid which destroyed several rail cars. When the train eventually arrived in Kufstein, it was discovered that the factory they are supposed to deliver these parts did not exist. They were then order to proceed to a fully staffed factory in Ozal Austria. When they arrived they found the factory was still under construction. At that point the train and all the contents were seized by the US Army. So here again it highly possible that Mauser parts were easy picking by the US troops. Much of this is from Don and Joops book, so many thanks to them for the information.

Mike

[Lugerdoc]

Mike, Thanks for the above info. I'll have to see about getting one of Joop's books. TH

[mrerick]

The book by Bas Martens on Mauser director "OTT-HELMUTH von LOSSNITZER, Technical Director of the Mauser Company, 1933–1945" has an extensive personal description of the Kufstein train and the end of the war.

It's taken from his interrogation by US Army intelligence.

Always remember that it is in the German nature to waste nothing. Even if complete firearms could not be assembled, the parts were probably kept for some future usage. Even parts like my minimally damaged side plate from 715g were not discarded.

This is a very interesting gun.