FYI 1900 clips - Page 2

Imperial Arms · 01-01-2003, 02:27 AM

To my fellow friends and collectors,

After reading the post provided by Don from the Chief of BATF Imports regarding the importation of a Luger magazine, I hate to say that the US has one of the most bureaucratic gun laws on the planet! I cannot believe that an old Luger magazine (less than 10 rounds) requires a ATF Form 6 for importation which usually takes 6-8 weeks for clearance. It is sad to see how terrible crimes in the US are spoiling the joy of collecting rare items. I guess that the Second Amendment is not saving the interests of US citizens and collectors! Unfortunately, with all the hysteria which has been caused by the 911 tragedy and the escalating crime in the US, I believe that the gun (import) laws might never be relaxed to a reasonable level allowing collectors the ability to import rare items from abroad.

I am providing hereunder ridiculous examples which were implemented by the BATF covering a few specific areas:

1) Mauser C96 Broomhandle pistols below the serial number 15000 (Cone Hammer and some Large Ring Hammers included) are considered antiques and exempt from the GCA because they were supposingly made before 1898. If that is the case, the BATF have their facts wrong! According to factory records which I have obtained from research, Cone Hammer pistols were manufactured between 1896-1907. Furthermore, can anyone explain to me the difference between a Cone Hammer and a Large Ring Hammer which are the same size and fire the exact same 7.63 mm cartridge which can be commercially purchased today? What makes a model 1930 Small Ring any different from a Cone Hammer, and why are the former not considered antiques? I assume that this issue/subject revolves around the 'pick out of the hat' number 1898 and why cannot it be changed to 1945?

2) According to BATF Import laws, a pre-war (even a highly collector grade) Walther PPK cannot be imported into the US as a result of its size, however, those PPK pistols already in the US can be bought and sold without any problem. What is the reason of the BATF not allowing the importation of pre-war PPK pistols if they can still be found on the market? Are they afraid that C&R PPK pistols might be used in crimes because it is a concealible weapon? What is the difference between a PPK and a PP or a post war PPK/S besides one centimeter in the length of the grip?

3) Military C&R firearms need to be imported by a licensed importer which can degraded by the awful sight of dealer import stamps. For example, what is the difference between the rare 1906 Navy Military Luger and 1906 Navy Commercial besides a few proof marks? What is the apparent reason of using a licensed importer if the firearm is a military C&R pistol? Why cannot a normal FFL dealer import a military C&R pistol?

In my opinion, the BATF is not helping in the preservation of history and they do not really recognize the collectors society who enjoy collecting WWI and WWII firearms. Although I am a German national, I can understand the frustration, shame and anger that US collectors might be experiencing.

Without knowing all the details, it might be beneficial if US collectors were introduced to a form of gun laws used in Germany which are reasonable. For example, private individuals in Germany who wish to become collectors can apply for special collector licenses which give them permission to collect specific types firearms such as Lugers, Walthers and Mausers. With this type of license, German collectors gain the same rights as US collectors and, moreover, they are allowed to import military and commercial firearms listed in their license without the services of a dealer; they simply have to pay a 10% import duty to German Customs on the declared value of the firearm.

In conclusion, I believe that the uncontrollable crime in the US is having a crippling effect on the collectors society, and unfortunately the bureaucrats and politicians do not know the difference between a collectors item and a modern firearm because to them, a firearm is a firearm.

By reason of the fact that my German nationality may have little bearing/impact on US import laws, I hope that I can eventually encourage the BATF to loosen their regulations on C&R collector items which will unlikely be used in any crime. Hopefully, a regettible experience I am having at the moment with US Customs will turn into my favor and maybe create a positive change in the future.

Albert

Lugerdoc · 01-01-2003, 10:31 AM

Albert, I applaud your understanding of the BATF regulations that you cite. It's beyond that of most US collectors and certainly most US citizens and our elected representative. Unfortunately, I don't expect any positive changes in the near future. The GCA of 1968 seems to be etched in stone regarding importation with only a few more rigid interpetation during the Clinton administration. On the other hand, one of our military members was recently reassigned to duty in Germany and wanted to bring his collection along. He was told that the pistols that were not made in Germany would have to go thru the proof house and be so marked. Obviously, they are still here in the US. Tom H.

Navy · 01-01-2003, 01:12 PM

Folks,

Lemme see if I got this right?

The guvmint is working this hard to keep out a M1900 Luger magazie while the same guvmint is letting towelheads with bombs slide in and out of the country like going to the mall? What MORONS!

Am *mighty glad* I don't get all the guvmint I pay for.

Tom A.

policeluger · 01-01-2003, 03:15 PM

Albert did a great job on researching, and I will print out a copy just for referencing back too. We tried again at Christmas too get the mags, and the hold up was once again on the Canadian side. I have just about washed my hands of the whole deal as it seems it will never happen. The clips where just a toy for me too play with anyway. I just can not believe it was such an ordeal. Perhaps I'll get too BC in a few months to hunt and can at least stop and see them on my way north.

Navy · 01-01-2003, 08:17 PM

This thread confirms the adage: "The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity"

But never mind...

Tom A.
Who has an urge....d...when confronted with such mind-numbing asseninity

policeluger · 01-01-2003, 10:56 PM

Are you directing your comments towards me, not a very kind reply too whom ever it is extended.

Navy · 01-02-2003, 06:09 AM

Oh heavens no! Please excuse me if I inadvertantly caused offense.
Tom A

policeluger · 01-02-2003, 11:00 AM

Well I just retired from 34 years of "white collar welfare"....you hit it on the head. Have a happy new year.

01-01-2003, 10:31 AM	#22
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Albert, I applaud your understanding of the BATF regulations that you cite. It's beyond that of most US collectors and certainly most US citizens and our elected representative. Unfortunately, I don't expect any positive changes in the near future. The GCA of 1968 seems to be etched in stone regarding importation with only a few more rigid interpetation during the Clinton administration. On the other hand, one of our military members was recently reassigned to duty in Germany and wanted to bring his collection along. He was told that the pistols that were not made in Germany would have to go thru the proof house and be so marked. Obviously, they are still here in the US. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-01-2003, 02:27 AM	#21
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	To my fellow friends and collectors, After reading the post provided by Don from the Chief of BATF Imports regarding the importation of a Luger magazine, I hate to say that the US has one of the most bureaucratic gun laws on the planet! I cannot believe that an old Luger magazine (less than 10 rounds) requires a ATF Form 6 for importation which usually takes 6-8 weeks for clearance. It is sad to see how terrible crimes in the US are spoiling the joy of collecting rare items. I guess that the Second Amendment is not saving the interests of US citizens and collectors! Unfortunately, with all the hysteria which has been caused by the 911 tragedy and the escalating crime in the US, I believe that the gun (import) laws might never be relaxed to a reasonable level allowing collectors the ability to import rare items from abroad. I am providing hereunder ridiculous examples which were implemented by the BATF covering a few specific areas: 1) Mauser C96 Broomhandle pistols below the serial number 15000 (Cone Hammer and some Large Ring Hammers included) are considered antiques and exempt from the GCA because they were supposingly made before 1898. If that is the case, the BATF have their facts wrong! According to factory records which I have obtained from research, Cone Hammer pistols were manufactured between 1896-1907. Furthermore, can anyone explain to me the difference between a Cone Hammer and a Large Ring Hammer which are the same size and fire the exact same 7.63 mm cartridge which can be commercially purchased today? What makes a model 1930 Small Ring any different from a Cone Hammer, and why are the former not considered antiques? I assume that this issue/subject revolves around the 'pick out of the hat' number 1898 and why cannot it be changed to 1945? 2) According to BATF Import laws, a pre-war (even a highly collector grade) Walther PPK cannot be imported into the US as a result of its size, however, those PPK pistols already in the US can be bought and sold without any problem. What is the reason of the BATF not allowing the importation of pre-war PPK pistols if they can still be found on the market? Are they afraid that C&R PPK pistols might be used in crimes because it is a concealible weapon? What is the difference between a PPK and a PP or a post war PPK/S besides one centimeter in the length of the grip? 3) Military C&R firearms need to be imported by a licensed importer which can degraded by the awful sight of dealer import stamps. For example, what is the difference between the rare 1906 Navy Military Luger and 1906 Navy Commercial besides a few proof marks? What is the apparent reason of using a licensed importer if the firearm is a military C&R pistol? Why cannot a normal FFL dealer import a military C&R pistol? In my opinion, the BATF is not helping in the preservation of history and they do not really recognize the collectors society who enjoy collecting WWI and WWII firearms. Although I am a German national, I can understand the frustration, shame and anger that US collectors might be experiencing. Without knowing all the details, it might be beneficial if US collectors were introduced to a form of gun laws used in Germany which are reasonable. For example, private individuals in Germany who wish to become collectors can apply for special collector licenses which give them permission to collect specific types firearms such as Lugers, Walthers and Mausers. With this type of license, German collectors gain the same rights as US collectors and, moreover, they are allowed to import military and commercial firearms listed in their license without the services of a dealer; they simply have to pay a 10% import duty to German Customs on the declared value of the firearm. In conclusion, I believe that the uncontrollable crime in the US is having a crippling effect on the collectors society, and unfortunately the bureaucrats and politicians do not know the difference between a collectors item and a modern firearm because to them, a firearm is a firearm. By reason of the fact that my German nationality may have little bearing/impact on US import laws, I hope that I can eventually encourage the BATF to loosen their regulations on C&R collector items which will unlikely be used in any crime. Hopefully, a regettible experience I am having at the moment with US Customs will turn into my favor and maybe create a positive change in the future. Albert

01-01-2003, 01:12 PM	#23
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Folks, Lemme see if I got this right? The guvmint is working this hard to keep out a M1900 Luger magazie while the same guvmint is letting towelheads with bombs slide in and out of the country like going to the mall? What MORONS! Am mighty glad I don't get all the guvmint I pay for. Tom A.

01-01-2003, 03:15 PM	#24
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Albert did a great job on researching, and I will print out a copy just for referencing back too. We tried again at Christmas too get the mags, and the hold up was once again on the Canadian side. I have just about washed my hands of the whole deal as it seems it will never happen. The clips where just a toy for me too play with anyway. I just can not believe it was such an ordeal. Perhaps I'll get too BC in a few months to hunt and can at least stop and see them on my way north.

01-01-2003, 08:17 PM	#25
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	This thread confirms the adage: "The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity" But never mind... Tom A. Who has an urge....d...when confronted with such mind-numbing asseninity

01-01-2003, 10:56 PM	#26
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Are you directing your comments towards me, not a very kind reply too whom ever it is extended.

01-02-2003, 06:09 AM	#27
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Oh heavens no! Please excuse me if I inadvertantly caused offense. Tom A

01-02-2003, 11:00 AM	#28
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Well I just retired from 34 years of "white collar welfare"....you hit it on the head. Have a happy new year.