P 08 frames transferred from DWM/BKIW to Mauser in 1930; and other frame variants too

DonVoigt · 01-20-2016, 09:56 AM

Continuing the discussion from the "1937 Mauser" thread.
(http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=35248)

Confusing data eliminated, if anyone has a question or wants to post info on the subject,
now you have a thread for same.

Edward Tinker · 01-20-2016, 10:26 AM

I am confused about this thread?

And the color, its hard on my male - slightly color blind eyes...

John Sabato · 01-20-2016, 10:38 AM

"Color" Fixed for you Ed!

Mark1 · 01-20-2016, 06:51 PM

OK, that works!

So my 1930 ,06 Waffenfabrik Bern is a Type 3 "new model long frame" (thanks Ron Wood)

The new model short frame (original P08) = 129mm , plus 1mm at the front (long frame), plus 1mm at the rear (toggle pin solution) = 131mm. Which is what I measure.

Not trying to derail this discussion of DWM and Mauser frames just understanding how this toggle pin problem was addressed by the "other" Luger manufacturer of the time.

Mark

DonVoigt · 01-20-2016, 07:58 PM

Thanks for posting Mark.

Unlike some, I don't mind folks adding to threads; I'll change the title to include all frame variants!

Dwight Gruber · 01-20-2016, 09:33 PM

Some clarification:

The difference between the New Model short and long frames is 2mm length at the front of the frame. There is no difference at the back.

The Mauser full 1mm extension at the rear frame is not "reinforced". This term is properly applied to frames which have less material removed from the inner surface of the rear of the frame. This modification began with Erfurt in 1911 and DWM in 1914, and continued throughout P08 production.

The modification which resulted in the Mauser "hump" was removal of 1mm of rear frame length extension except at the frame ears. This removal includes the center portion of the frame which the toggle tail strikes on manual operation. This allows the breechblock to be drawn back to its original rearward movement specification, which the full 1mm extension did not allow.

--Dwight

DonVoigt · 01-20-2016, 10:28 PM

Dwight,
That makes sense, as I thought the long frames were 2mm=/- longer AT the front; 1 mm was really confusing me.

To satisfy myself, I just measured both the Mauser humped frames and Mauser G date without hump, these Mauser frames run close to the nominal 130mm up to 130.2mm.

Measuring the std. DWM short frames, the nominal 129mm measures 129.4 to 129.5mm on the three frames I had handy.

There are pictures on the site somewhere of the "reinforced' frames(inside reinforce) not just the longer "ears".

Thanks for your clarification.

sheepherder · 01-20-2016, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

To satisfy myself, I just measured both the Mauser humped frames and Mauser G date without hump, these Mauser frames run close to the nominal 130mm up to 130.2mm.

Measuring the std. DWM short frames, the nominal 129mm measures 129.4 to 124.5mm on the three frames I had handy.

I measured my 1900AE at 131.14mm, and my Mauser S/42 [no hump; no reinforcement] at 129.21mm...

DonVoigt · 01-20-2016, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I measured my 1900AE at 131.14mm, and my Mauser S/42 [no hump; no reinforcement] at 129.21mm...

You sure your s/42 frame is a Mauser?
Matching/serial/dimple in the lug groove?

Norme · 01-21-2016, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Dwight,
That makes sense, as I thought the long frames were 2mm=/- longer AT the front; 1 mm was really confusing me.

To satisfy myself, I just measured both the Mauser humped frames and Mauser G date without hump, these Mauser frames run close to the nominal 130mm up to 130.2mm.

Measuring the std. DWM short frames, the nominal 129mm measures 129.4 to 124.5mm on the three frames I had handy.

There are pictures on the site somewhere of the "reinforced' frames(inside reinforce) not just the longer "ears".

Thanks for your clarification.

Hi Don, 124.5mm, really?
Regards, Norm

DonVoigt · 01-21-2016, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Don, 124.5mm, really?
Regards, Norm

Yes, measured them several times.; of course the 124.5 is a typo, it is fixed now, thanks.
I'm happy someone is paying attention!

Using digital calipers,
I get near exact 130mm on the Mauser frames, and
129.1, 129.4, and 129.5 mm on three different DWM frames.

I was surprised; when I have time will measure more; I'm really curious about Erfurt production, but had none handy to measure.

I did measure a 1906 navy and it was just shy of 131mm.

I do hope some others will do some measurements.

01-20-2016, 09:56 AM	#1
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	P 08 frames transferred from DWM/BKIW to Mauser in 1930; and other frame variants too Continuing the discussion from the "1937 Mauser" thread. (http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=35248) Confusing data eliminated, if anyone has a question or wants to post info on the subject, now you have a thread for same. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie Last edited by DonVoigt; 01-20-2016 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Confusing.

01-20-2016, 10:38 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	"Color" Fixed for you Ed! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-20-2016, 06:51 PM	#4
Mark1 User Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 72 Thanks: 332 Thanked 74 Times in 25 Posts	OK, that works! So my 1930 ,06 Waffenfabrik Bern is a Type 3 "new model long frame" (thanks Ron Wood) The new model short frame (original P08) = 129mm , plus 1mm at the front (long frame), plus 1mm at the rear (toggle pin solution) = 131mm. Which is what I measure. Not trying to derail this discussion of DWM and Mauser frames just understanding how this toggle pin problem was addressed by the "other" Luger manufacturer of the time. Mark Last edited by Mark1; 01-20-2016 at 06:52 PM. Reason: add Type 3

01-20-2016, 07:58 PM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	Thanks for posting Mark. Unlike some, I don't mind folks adding to threads; I'll change the title to include all frame variants! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie Last edited by DonVoigt; 01-20-2016 at 10:28 PM.

01-20-2016, 10:28 PM	#7
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	Dwight, That makes sense, as I thought the long frames were 2mm=/- longer AT the front; 1 mm was really confusing me. To satisfy myself, I just measured both the Mauser humped frames and Mauser G date without hump, these Mauser frames run close to the nominal 130mm up to 130.2mm. Measuring the std. DWM short frames, the nominal 129mm measures 129.4 to 129.5mm on the three frames I had handy. There are pictures on the site somewhere of the "reinforced' frames(inside reinforce) not just the longer "ears". Thanks for your clarification. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie Last edited by DonVoigt; 01-21-2016 at 08:47 AM.

01-20-2016, 10:26 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I am confused about this thread? And the color, its hard on my male - slightly color blind eyes...

01-20-2016, 09:33 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Some clarification: The difference between the New Model short and long frames is 2mm length at the front of the frame. There is no difference at the back. The Mauser full 1mm extension at the rear frame is not "reinforced". This term is properly applied to frames which have less material removed from the inner surface of the rear of the frame. This modification began with Erfurt in 1911 and DWM in 1914, and continued throughout P08 production. The modification which resulted in the Mauser "hump" was removal of 1mm of rear frame length extension except at the frame ears. This removal includes the center portion of the frame which the toggle tail strikes on manual operation. This allows the breechblock to be drawn back to its original rearward movement specification, which the full 1mm extension did not allow. --Dwight