Japanese iconic weapon

alvin · 11-27-2015, 07:43 AM

After viewing many movies, historical pictures, etc, people must have this impression -- Japanese iconic weapon was not Arisaka rifle, not Nambu pistol, not Type 11 Machine gun, but was a sword. It was not only for parade decoration or posing in front of a camera -- it's very common to see Japanese waving this type of sword in battle fields and yelling "sha-ji-gei-gei" (at least, in movies

, probably means forward and kill, God knows) or more common scenes... murdering of their victims. Putting the war crime aside, the tool itself,, was impressive.

Acquired such a showato from Amoskeag last week. It's very well made and it's in excellent condition. Made by a commissioned swordsmith of that era.

alvin · 11-27-2015, 08:11 AM

Play this a little bit, and watch this movie could be fun (with E subtitle), roughly based on history events.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgGaWNZFKEw

DavidJayUden · 11-27-2015, 08:55 AM

I've got one, a lesser enlisted man's version with the brass grip, machine made blade, etc, that I believe is real (original WW2) and was told is real, but the problem with these things is that there are so many knockoffs, and very good ones, that it is a real crap-shoot. I'm told that even the experts have trouble telling the originals from the post war Chinese knock-offs.
I'd like to upgrade to a more ornate model, signed blade, etc, but am nervous.
Are my concerns realistic?
dju

kzullick · 11-27-2015, 08:56 AM

My Father had one exactly like yours that he brought back from the war, unfortunately for me he sold it before he passed away. Nice weapon.

alvin · 11-27-2015, 09:09 AM

According to my observation, Chinese knock-offs are relatively easy to tell. Newly made, low quality, acid soaked to make an old appearance, etc. Most of those are floating inside China though, people know they are fakes, very cheap. In US market, fake Showato situation is not very serious -- Americans captured quite amount of these, and most swords that I have seen in auction catalogs are genuine ones. Of course, this type of sword also has rare variations, very expensive ancient blade, etc. To tell those need more specific knowledge and experience. If not dedicated to it, no need to play those. Just play regular sword, it's safe enough.

DonVoigt · 11-27-2015, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

I've got one, a lesser enlisted man's version with the brass grip, machine made blade, etc, that I believe is real (original WW2) and was told is real, but the problem with these things is that there are so many knockoffs, and very good ones, that it is a real crap-shoot. I'm told that even the experts have trouble telling the originals from the post war Chinese knock-offs.
I'd like to upgrade to a more ornate model, signed blade, etc, but am nervous.
Are my concerns realistic?
dju

Yes,
like Alvin says most are good, but enough are bad that one needs to study a bit and even better vet with a reliable sword collector.

DavidJayUden · 11-27-2015, 09:26 AM

OK, for the sake of conversation, what is the current price range for an average military grade piece w/scabbard, signed hand-made blade, etc? I understand that there will be lots of variables.
Also, what are some good collector web-sites or forums to watch and learn?
dju

sheepherder · 11-27-2015, 10:05 AM

It looks to be very nice.

My postmaster was in a WW II Marine bomber squadron [quite rare!] and brought back an enlisted NCO sword. I'm told the pebbly white material is sharkskin. Kinda neat. My postmasters sword had little metal prayer thingies stuck under the braid, like the mums in your sword.

IIRC, the entire grip assembly is held on by one bamboo pin, sealed in place with ink. Supposedly, it was common for the owner to write his death poem/verse on a paper and place it inside the grip. The maker's name [in Kanji?] would also be inside the grip, inscribed on the concealed blade haft.

That exhausts my knowledge of Japanese swords.

alvin · 11-27-2015, 10:52 AM

The main obstacle for Showato acquisition is the "mei". Actually, that's very simple, but oriental characters is totally separated from western Latin character system. In handwriting form, it's not easy to pattern matching those.

The official showto makers were listed in this web page (Japanese wartime swordsmith name list):

http://ohmura-study.net/025.html

This particular maker's name was in the page. I circled his name in the web page picture. The "mei" is longer, first 5 characters were his location (Nōshū, see map below), followed by his 4-character name (Takeyama Yoshinao, kanji form of the name see the picture), followed by two more characters,,, translating into English "carefully made".

The price of Showato varies. Since most Americans cannot read Japanese, so the "mei" is actually less important in pricing according to my market observation. But like other C&R, condition of the sword still counts. For swords in this shape, auction house estimation was $800-$1200, but I ended up paying $1725 BP included. It could be cheaper if no one competed, but there were competitors. Under $2000 is OK. Ideally, if under $1500, I felt I would have easy profit even for short-term play. At $1725... probably not short-term play though,,,, at least, not easy.

If blade has issues, it's usually cheaper. There are ancient blades, etc, I know, some rare item's condition is not excellent, but ... that's for dedicated collector. For regular players, condition, condition, condition. If blade has nicks, sword tip is broken, etc, a few hundred dollars. The rule is not very different from C&R pistol playing.

alvin · 11-27-2015, 12:57 PM

RIAC has one for December. Probably will go high though. It looks genuine on pictures. A little bit special because it's made by Manchuria Railway Corporation in 1940. RIAC posted the mei picture upside down...

The estimation is uncomfortable. But who knows... there are dedicated collectors. We will see where it goes next week.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/66/lid/1671

Edward Tinker · 11-27-2015, 03:22 PM

yes, I would say $1500-$2000

and go to a collector show and ask around, here in Penn at the Allentown show, there are a couple of Japanese Sword collectors that can help. The Japanese forum on gunboards is a good one for finding some experts...

Ed

sheepherder · 11-27-2015, 09:56 PM

Oh, one more thing...According to fiction novel writer Stephen Hunter, when the Empire went to war, a call went out to all who possessed swords to turn them in for the war effort. "The swords were shortened from the rear to bring them to the prescribed length. The tang was cut off, part of the original lower blade was ground off to lengthen the tang, a new hole was drilled in the grip and military mounts were put on"...

alvin · 11-27-2015, 10:30 PM

I also heard of that. Japanese government asked people to donate,,, had sword making skill then donating skill, no skill but having family sword then donating sword, no skill no sword but having money then buying swords to donate,,, basically, everyone had a role to play at wartime

Those Japanese soldiers, especially those in 1930s, were universally well trained in knife fighting. According to memoirs, in 1937, one Japanese soldier could fight 3 to 4 Chinese nationalist soldiers in bayonet charge.

See the first battle in the above posted movie? It's a historical event:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pingxingguan

Communist soldiers were those who passed 6000-mile Long-March soldiers, considered being elite both mentally and physically. Ambushing a Japanese supply column in valley. Finally won the battle, but at almost 1 vs 1 casualty ratio. After Chairman Mao heard of this, he told his commanders, "We cannot afford using our best troops this way..." Of course, that was not shown in the movie.

alvin · 12-06-2015, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

RIAC has one for December. Probably will go high though. It looks genuine on pictures. A little bit special because it's made by Manchuria Railway Corporation in 1940. RIAC posted the mei picture upside down...

The estimation is uncomfortable. But who knows... there are dedicated collectors. We will see where it goes next week.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/66/lid/1671

Just checked, this RIAC Manchuria railway sword sold $3450 (BP included) yesterday. Obviously, there are some collectors on cold steel.

The marking on the handle was standard for this type: "Build Asia united. Made by Manchuria Railway". In old war movies, it's a common scene seeing paint on wall saying "Royal Army comes here to help you building a great paradise". Next to the slogan, a few human heads were hanged there.

11-27-2015, 07:43 AM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Japanese iconic weapon After viewing many movies, historical pictures, etc, people must have this impression -- Japanese iconic weapon was not Arisaka rifle, not Nambu pistol, not Type 11 Machine gun, but was a sword. It was not only for parade decoration or posing in front of a camera -- it's very common to see Japanese waving this type of sword in battle fields and yelling "sha-ji-gei-gei" (at least, in movies, probably means forward and kill, God knows) or more common scenes... murdering of their victims. Putting the war crime aside, the tool itself,, was impressive. Acquired such a showato from Amoskeag last week. It's very well made and it's in excellent condition. Made by a commissioned swordsmith of that era. Attached Thumbnails

11-27-2015, 10:05 AM	#8
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	It looks to be very nice. My postmaster was in a WW II Marine bomber squadron [quite rare!] and brought back an enlisted NCO sword. I'm told the pebbly white material is sharkskin. Kinda neat. My postmasters sword had little metal prayer thingies stuck under the braid, like the mums in your sword. IIRC, the entire grip assembly is held on by one bamboo pin, sealed in place with ink. Supposedly, it was common for the owner to write his death poem/verse on a paper and place it inside the grip. The maker's name [in Kanji?] would also be inside the grip, inscribed on the concealed blade haft. That exhausts my knowledge of Japanese swords. __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-27-2015, 10:52 AM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The main obstacle for Showato acquisition is the "mei". Actually, that's very simple, but oriental characters is totally separated from western Latin character system. In handwriting form, it's not easy to pattern matching those. The official showto makers were listed in this web page (Japanese wartime swordsmith name list): http://ohmura-study.net/025.html This particular maker's name was in the page. I circled his name in the web page picture. The "mei" is longer, first 5 characters were his location (Nōshū, see map below), followed by his 4-character name (Takeyama Yoshinao, kanji form of the name see the picture), followed by two more characters,,, translating into English "carefully made". The price of Showato varies. Since most Americans cannot read Japanese, so the "mei" is actually less important in pricing according to my market observation. But like other C&R, condition of the sword still counts. For swords in this shape, auction house estimation was $800-$1200, but I ended up paying $1725 BP included. It could be cheaper if no one competed, but there were competitors. Under $2000 is OK. Ideally, if under $1500, I felt I would have easy profit even for short-term play. At $1725... probably not short-term play though,,,, at least, not easy. If blade has issues, it's usually cheaper. There are ancient blades, etc, I know, some rare item's condition is not excellent, but ... that's for dedicated collector. For regular players, condition, condition, condition. If blade has nicks, sword tip is broken, etc, a few hundred dollars. The rule is not very different from C&R pistol playing. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

11-27-2015, 09:56 PM	#12
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	Oh, one more thing...According to fiction novel writer Stephen Hunter, when the Empire went to war, a call went out to all who possessed swords to turn them in for the war effort. "The swords were shortened from the rear to bring them to the prescribed length. The tang was cut off, part of the original lower blade was ground off to lengthen the tang, a new hole was drilled in the grip and military mounts were put on"... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-27-2015, 08:11 AM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Play this a little bit, and watch this movie could be fun (with E subtitle), roughly based on history events. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgGaWNZFKEw

11-27-2015, 08:55 AM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I've got one, a lesser enlisted man's version with the brass grip, machine made blade, etc, that I believe is real (original WW2) and was told is real, but the problem with these things is that there are so many knockoffs, and very good ones, that it is a real crap-shoot. I'm told that even the experts have trouble telling the originals from the post war Chinese knock-offs. I'd like to upgrade to a more ornate model, signed blade, etc, but am nervous. Are my concerns realistic? dju

11-27-2015, 08:56 AM	#4
kzullick Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: East Berwick, Pennsylvania Posts: 239 Thanks: 683 Thanked 104 Times in 85 Posts	My Father had one exactly like yours that he brought back from the war, unfortunately for me he sold it before he passed away. Nice weapon.

11-27-2015, 09:09 AM	#5
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	According to my observation, Chinese knock-offs are relatively easy to tell. Newly made, low quality, acid soaked to make an old appearance, etc. Most of those are floating inside China though, people know they are fakes, very cheap. In US market, fake Showato situation is not very serious -- Americans captured quite amount of these, and most swords that I have seen in auction catalogs are genuine ones. Of course, this type of sword also has rare variations, very expensive ancient blade, etc. To tell those need more specific knowledge and experience. If not dedicated to it, no need to play those. Just play regular sword, it's safe enough.

11-27-2015, 09:26 AM	#7
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	OK, for the sake of conversation, what is the current price range for an average military grade piece w/scabbard, signed hand-made blade, etc? I understand that there will be lots of variables. Also, what are some good collector web-sites or forums to watch and learn? dju

11-27-2015, 12:57 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	RIAC has one for December. Probably will go high though. It looks genuine on pictures. A little bit special because it's made by Manchuria Railway Corporation in 1940. RIAC posted the mei picture upside down... The estimation is uncomfortable. But who knows... there are dedicated collectors. We will see where it goes next week. http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/66/lid/1671

11-27-2015, 03:22 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	yes, I would say $1500-$2000 and go to a collector show and ask around, here in Penn at the Allentown show, there are a couple of Japanese Sword collectors that can help. The Japanese forum on gunboards is a good one for finding some experts... Ed

11-27-2015, 10:30 PM	#13
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I also heard of that. Japanese government asked people to donate,,, had sword making skill then donating skill, no skill but having family sword then donating sword, no skill no sword but having money then buying swords to donate,,, basically, everyone had a role to play at wartime Those Japanese soldiers, especially those in 1930s, were universally well trained in knife fighting. According to memoirs, in 1937, one Japanese soldier could fight 3 to 4 Chinese nationalist soldiers in bayonet charge. See the first battle in the above posted movie? It's a historical event: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pingxingguan Communist soldiers were those who passed 6000-mile Long-March soldiers, considered being elite both mentally and physically. Ambushing a Japanese supply column in valley. Finally won the battle, but at almost 1 vs 1 casualty ratio. After Chairman Mao heard of this, he told his commanders, "We cannot afford using our best troops this way..." Of course, that was not shown in the movie.