I had a crazy idea, Looking for some input...

P08Leder · 11-13-2015, 09:54 AM

I bought a reblued 1918 Erfurt shooter for $650.
Mechanically excellent and tight. Shoots great.
You would have to beat that price point for a non-collectable shooter P08 IMHO

danielsand · 11-13-2015, 11:35 AM

I'll chime in on this one, because I find the idea intriguing.

The big obstacle is numbering of all the parts of the pistol. Manufacturers numbered them in the past for one reason only (and it's not to have "all matching" pistols!). They numbered them in order to be able to assemble the pistol with the parts that "belong" to the particular unit after the bluing. Which tells us that a certain level of intolerance was machined into the parts, and MOST small parts had to be individually hand fitted to the EXACT unit.

This means that there are no two completely alike out there (down to microns)! Some of the members here are accomplished gunsmiths, and they will attest to the need of hand fitting the replacement parts to the weapons they work on. On another hand......MOST Parabellum owners/collectors ARE NOT knowledgeable and/or equipped for gunsmithing.

So which weapon would a "starter company" use for the template to replicate the parts on CNC machine (which is VERY possible)? And how would the end user fit their replacement parts to the weapon needing the new parts? Taking it all to the gunsmith, and have it "hand fitted"? This alone would push the final cost well beyond the price of the "non matching shooter" available today pretty much anywhere (there are thousands of them in circulation). Spare parts are still available in abundance (and they also need to be "hand fitted"!).

To replicate the same weapon over and over on CNC is quite possible, but the quality of such produced unit would be no better than what Interarms attempted in the past (possibly worse), and would have VERY limited market (IMO). "Parts kits" that would be offered for repair of genuine pistols would all have to be fitted (some extensively) to each individual, vintage pistol.

So far, these pistols survived in such quantity thanks largely to unselfish, altruistic collectors, which see themselves as "guardians/caretakers" of the historical pieces that are merely preserving them for the next generation. These people somehow established the "matching numbers value", and "non matching value" to fit certain pistols. As we all know, there are very few pistols out there that have matching magazines, holsters, etc. Non matching magazines are OK, but god forbid one internal part is "mismatched"!! I think it's hypocritical.

There are other, selfish bastards (like myself) that have "matching" pistols, and shoot them (not extensively mind you!), with complete awareness that some original (numbered) part might break, and make them "worth less" in the future. Worth less to who, I ask? Descendants that will sell it at the first opportunity, and take a vacation to Bahamas? Personally,..... I couldn't care less!

There are more selfish bastards like me out there, and the number of "matching" pistols will inevitably get smaller and smaller, in the next century, until there will be only "shooter grade" weapons circulating in the world. Does it matter? In my experience, there might be a handful of young people out there that are even remotely interested in WW2, or history in general.

Even non matching ones are shooting good, they are marvels of the technology from the late 19th century, and good to look at. Newly produced "shooter" will never have the attractiveness of the historical piece ("been there, done that"), "matching", or "not", for someone interested in history.

In summary......I don't see this idea as a viable, profit generating idea, but if one has tons of surplus money/time, it would be fun (in a way of saying "look guys, I did this!!"). All I see is deadlines, expenses, contracts, bills, customer service, employees/payroll, workman's comp, insurance, ATF, EPA, IRS.........everything I ran away from, and the time is running short!

Sorry about the rant. I don't post much, but boy.......when I do I write novels!

mundy928 · 11-13-2015, 06:19 PM

Thanks for all the replies so far! P08Leder and Lugerdoc defintely have a point. The price point has to be low enough to beat out buying an authentic shooter, something very hard to do (maybe impossible) without a total sacrifice of quality. It would be interesting to get numbers from a manufacture. I think you are right that a person would have to get the whole collection of parts together for less than $650 to make it worth it. Its entirely a moot point however if danielsand's concerns cannot be addressed.

Danielsand,
I do not know what the production floor of the companies that made Lugers to a high quality of fit and function looked like. I also do not know how many of the production steps were accomplished by unskilled laborers and could be replaced by a combination of C&C machining, the workshop of a 21st century enthusiast and youtube and which production steps would require a trip to a gunsmith. I have an idea, but I cannot answer to 100% confidence. Many of the 1911kits that are on the market today do require a level of finishing unique to each firearm. I am more than happy to find an answer and if anyone can point me in the right direction I would be grateful. I currently have the surplus of time to find exactly where the idea falls apart.

danielsand · 11-13-2015, 07:13 PM

[QUOTE=mundy928; unskilled laborers and could be replaced by a combination of C&C machining, .[/QUOTE]

It's just an opinion,....my opinion,.......but make no mistake about the quality of the steel (almost impossible to replicate today), and the level of skill those people had. "Unskilled laborers" were probably doing bluing, assembly, polishing, etc and certain level of skill was needed even in those areas. The people that actually fitted the individual parts had skills, as machinists and/or gunsmiths. Final finishing was crappy (final machining), and we know why (cutting man hours). This level of external (and to some extent, internal) metal finishing would not "fly" in today's market.

The steps in the production of (e.g.) DMW Parabellum, are documented (if you do the search), and the man hours only, would price the produced weapon WAY out of today's market. In order to "cut costs", one would have to resort to investment casting, and such, and this would not be the level of quality/durability one expects from a vintage pistol that was made "the old school" way.

If one wants to produce "replica" of the vintage weapon,....by all means, it's possible, but to generate enough interest (and market) to be profitable, ...........IMO, not doable.

High production cost is the MAIN reason why German armed forces switched to P38 (which didn't offer any advantages over P08, except lower production cost, and the awful DA is debatable!). Factories that were producing P08 at that time, were "government owned", and/or subsidized by the government. As such, they were able to offer P08 at MUCH lower cost, than the amount of labor that went into them would demand.

Producing P08 of a lower quality, and with no historical connection would be exercise in futility,........but that's just MY opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it!

11-13-2015, 09:54 AM	#1
P08Leder User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 77 Thanks: 8 Thanked 43 Times in 18 Posts	I bought a reblued 1918 Erfurt shooter for $650. Mechanically excellent and tight. Shoots great. You would have to beat that price point for a non-collectable shooter P08 IMHO

11-13-2015, 11:35 AM	#2
danielsand User Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: SoCal Posts: 137 Thanks: 52 Thanked 100 Times in 43 Posts	I'll chime in on this one, because I find the idea intriguing. The big obstacle is numbering of all the parts of the pistol. Manufacturers numbered them in the past for one reason only (and it's not to have "all matching" pistols!). They numbered them in order to be able to assemble the pistol with the parts that "belong" to the particular unit after the bluing. Which tells us that a certain level of intolerance was machined into the parts, and MOST small parts had to be individually hand fitted to the EXACT unit. This means that there are no two completely alike out there (down to microns)! Some of the members here are accomplished gunsmiths, and they will attest to the need of hand fitting the replacement parts to the weapons they work on. On another hand......MOST Parabellum owners/collectors ARE NOT knowledgeable and/or equipped for gunsmithing. So which weapon would a "starter company" use for the template to replicate the parts on CNC machine (which is VERY possible)? And how would the end user fit their replacement parts to the weapon needing the new parts? Taking it all to the gunsmith, and have it "hand fitted"? This alone would push the final cost well beyond the price of the "non matching shooter" available today pretty much anywhere (there are thousands of them in circulation). Spare parts are still available in abundance (and they also need to be "hand fitted"!). To replicate the same weapon over and over on CNC is quite possible, but the quality of such produced unit would be no better than what Interarms attempted in the past (possibly worse), and would have VERY limited market (IMO). "Parts kits" that would be offered for repair of genuine pistols would all have to be fitted (some extensively) to each individual, vintage pistol. So far, these pistols survived in such quantity thanks largely to unselfish, altruistic collectors, which see themselves as "guardians/caretakers" of the historical pieces that are merely preserving them for the next generation. These people somehow established the "matching numbers value", and "non matching value" to fit certain pistols. As we all know, there are very few pistols out there that have matching magazines, holsters, etc. Non matching magazines are OK, but god forbid one internal part is "mismatched"!! I think it's hypocritical. There are other, selfish bastards (like myself) that have "matching" pistols, and shoot them (not extensively mind you!), with complete awareness that some original (numbered) part might break, and make them "worth less" in the future. Worth less to who, I ask? Descendants that will sell it at the first opportunity, and take a vacation to Bahamas? Personally,..... I couldn't care less! There are more selfish bastards like me out there, and the number of "matching" pistols will inevitably get smaller and smaller, in the next century, until there will be only "shooter grade" weapons circulating in the world. Does it matter? In my experience, there might be a handful of young people out there that are even remotely interested in WW2, or history in general. Even non matching ones are shooting good, they are marvels of the technology from the late 19th century, and good to look at. Newly produced "shooter" will never have the attractiveness of the historical piece ("been there, done that"), "matching", or "not", for someone interested in history. In summary......I don't see this idea as a viable, profit generating idea, but if one has tons of surplus money/time, it would be fun (in a way of saying "look guys, I did this!!"). All I see is deadlines, expenses, contracts, bills, customer service, employees/payroll, workman's comp, insurance, ATF, EPA, IRS.........everything I ran away from, and the time is running short! Sorry about the rant. I don't post much, but boy.......when I do I write novels!

11-13-2015, 06:19 PM	#3
mundy928 User Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for all the replies so far! P08Leder and Lugerdoc defintely have a point. The price point has to be low enough to beat out buying an authentic shooter, something very hard to do (maybe impossible) without a total sacrifice of quality. It would be interesting to get numbers from a manufacture. I think you are right that a person would have to get the whole collection of parts together for less than $650 to make it worth it. Its entirely a moot point however if danielsand's concerns cannot be addressed. Danielsand, I do not know what the production floor of the companies that made Lugers to a high quality of fit and function looked like. I also do not know how many of the production steps were accomplished by unskilled laborers and could be replaced by a combination of C&C machining, the workshop of a 21st century enthusiast and youtube and which production steps would require a trip to a gunsmith. I have an idea, but I cannot answer to 100% confidence. Many of the 1911kits that are on the market today do require a level of finishing unique to each firearm. I am more than happy to find an answer and if anyone can point me in the right direction I would be grateful. I currently have the surplus of time to find exactly where the idea falls apart.

11-13-2015, 07:13 PM	#4
danielsand User Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: SoCal Posts: 137 Thanks: 52 Thanked 100 Times in 43 Posts	[QUOTE=mundy928; unskilled laborers and could be replaced by a combination of C&C machining, .[/QUOTE] It's just an opinion,....my opinion,.......but make no mistake about the quality of the steel (almost impossible to replicate today), and the level of skill those people had. "Unskilled laborers" were probably doing bluing, assembly, polishing, etc and certain level of skill was needed even in those areas. The people that actually fitted the individual parts had skills, as machinists and/or gunsmiths. Final finishing was crappy (final machining), and we know why (cutting man hours). This level of external (and to some extent, internal) metal finishing would not "fly" in today's market. The steps in the production of (e.g.) DMW Parabellum, are documented (if you do the search), and the man hours only, would price the produced weapon WAY out of today's market. In order to "cut costs", one would have to resort to investment casting, and such, and this would not be the level of quality/durability one expects from a vintage pistol that was made "the old school" way. If one wants to produce "replica" of the vintage weapon,....by all means, it's possible, but to generate enough interest (and market) to be profitable, ...........IMO, not doable. High production cost is the MAIN reason why German armed forces switched to P38 (which didn't offer any advantages over P08, except lower production cost, and the awful DA is debatable!). Factories that were producing P08 at that time, were "government owned", and/or subsidized by the government. As such, they were able to offer P08 at MUCH lower cost, than the amount of labor that went into them would demand. Producing P08 of a lower quality, and with no historical connection would be exercise in futility,........but that's just MY opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it!