Finding a fake

boogieman · 09-15-2015, 07:50 AM

Finding quality guns (all guns not just Lugers) with matching numbers for a reasonable price is becoming more difficult and therefore the prices continue to rise. With modern equipment its not a all difficult to stamp parts to match. Even "honest wear" can be reproduced with relative ease. How do you know you are getting the real deal?
In reality I could have a set of stamps made (if not already out there) and stamp every part in a non-matching gun to match including proofs. Im sure im not unique.
Are we relying on the honesty of others not to force matches? To my knowledge there is no law against this unless you deface the serial number on the frame.
My question concerns newer collectors like myself. How do you keep from paying top dollar for a fake if everything looks as it should?

DonVoigt · 09-15-2015, 08:18 AM

How? Only by experience and a a good reference library that one uses consistently.

"force" matching is always detectable, even if one has to resort to x-rays! Though
not always practical or cost effective.

There are laws against fraud in all locations; I believe this is the issue- it is the proving that is difficult and probably more costly than the item's value that is in question. JMHO.

Sergio Natali · 09-15-2015, 09:05 AM

I agree with you Don, in the end what really counts is personal experience and some reliable good books.
I another forum more or less on the same topic we were talking about the fact that some books are very expensive (Clawson's on 1911) and another forum member more or less said that for instance an original Singer magazine in nice condition is probably worth $10K if you could ever find one. A field Serve replacement General Shaver mag costs about $60, and they are quite common. How many people have grossly overpaid for what they thought was a Singer magazine? He have had several General Shaver mags shown to him by guys who purchased them, thinking they were getting a Singer mag. They lost far more money in one purchase than what a Clawson books generally sells for.

Rgds

Sergio

Edward Tinker · 09-15-2015, 09:23 AM

Experience and even then the experts sometimes get taken.

Realize several things - most fake 'wear' does not look right
most freshened up guns look freshened up
actual patina is almost impossible to fake

buying from known parties is best - however, are we talking $1000 guns or $15,000 guns? The less expensive guns are unlikely to be faked, why, because they already cost $800-$1500 to buy, what profit margin is there in doing so?

When a new stamp (and most on ebay look fine to poor) - the stamp is applied over the blue, which is not how it would have been done. So, it has to be reblued, rebluing process involves what?

So, to fake something is possible and there are several folks who do it as a living, but most of the time you can tell.

My bigest concern is the vast majority of folks who want a 98-99% gun. They exist, but come on folks, no wear on a 80-100 year old gun? Yes, I have seen very nice ones, but like I said, too many folks want a pristine gun and they get all excited over 'pretty gun'. Heck of a lot of VERY nice Test Lugers out there IMHO

Ed

sheepherder · 09-15-2015, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogieman

How do you keep from paying top dollar for a fake if everything looks as it should?

There actually is an essay/thread, either here or at Jan's, or linked here/Jan's, on detecting fakes. I don't have the URL (it really should be a sticky) but maybe someone remembers where it is???

Edit: I didn't find it, but John D. did bring up the idea of such a forum - "How about a section dealing with faked, refinished, and boosted Lugers" -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=78908

I haven't finished reading the 4 pages so I don't know what the consensus was...

boogieman · 09-15-2015, 10:16 AM

My biggest concerns would be at a gun show or similar venue where an impulse buy would be the norm. Or even a LGS where the owner thinks he is selling the real deal.
I would love to see the thread/essay on detecting fakes.

sheepherder · 09-15-2015, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogieman

I would love to see the thread/essay on detecting fakes.

I joined in '09, so it was posted or linked in the last six years...That should narrow down your Search a little...

Sergio Natali · 09-15-2015, 12:30 PM

My bigest concern is the vast majority of folks who want a 98-99% gun. They exist, but come on folks, no wear on a 80-100 year old gun? Yes, I have seen very nice ones, but like I said, too many folks want a pristine gun and they get all excited over 'pretty gun'. Heck of a lot of VERY nice Test Lugers out there IMHO

Ed

Ed,

The most amusing thing is that also where I live many "collectors" seem to look mainly for WWI/WWI pistols in mint conditions!

Sergio

Edward Tinker · 09-15-2015, 03:12 PM

The thread you are discussing was probably the one written by Tom Armstrong.

Take a look at the FAQ and there is several things in there, how to spot cold blue, how to tell if old, etc.

Most of what you are asking is simply seeing hundreds of real lugers...

boogieman · 09-15-2015, 04:03 PM

I certainly havent had my hands on many lugers. Maybe half dozen in my lifetime. I am referencing guns in general with lugers being near the high end of the list due to relative value. Another that would come to mind would be Singer 1911. Any other number of common guns that have high value sub sets like sniper models.

DonVoigt · 09-15-2015, 05:16 PM

There is no quick, easy, sure, or reliable way to discern when "things" have been done.

One thing you can do is avoid the "impulse", that is an excuse not a reason to buy and not a reason to skip doing "home work".

You are basically asking "How do I get 1000 years of collecting experience in a pill?" -

It ain't going to happen.

JMHO.

Sergio Natali · 09-16-2015, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

There is no quick, easy, sure, or reliable way to discern when "things" have been done.

One thing you can do is avoid the "impulse", that is an excuse not a reason to buy and not a reason to skip doing "home work".

You are basically asking "How do I get 1000 years of collecting experience in a pill?" -

It ain't going to happen.

JMHO.

I totally agree with these absolutely previous advices.

Sergio

John Sabato · 09-16-2015, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

The thread you are discussing was probably the one written by Tom Armstrong.

Take a look at the FAQ and there is several things in there, how to spot cold blue, how to tell if old, etc.

Most of what you are asking is simply seeing hundreds of real lugers...

My late dear friend Tom Armstrong,

was one of the true heroes of this country. He was a strong opinioned and outspoken citizen and veteran with the combat experience that made people pay attention when he spoke of such things. We were graced by his presence on this forum for many years, and served as the primary Moderator of the Navy Lugers forum until his untimely passing.

You may find it difficult to find his postings because though he used his given name (Tom Armstrong) as his screen name for most of that time, toward the end, he changed his screen name to Navy, which of course changed all of his posting to be under that new name.

He had an amazing collection of all types of guns. His knowledge of how Lugers get faked, boosted, fabricated, and pumped up to be something that they were not was simply amazing. He lived and breathed exposing fake Lugers.

He saved thousands of dollars for members of this forum by detecting fakes before they paid for their new find.

If you want to gain a fraction of what he knew regarding fakes, you need to read not only this thread:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...highlight=fake

but I would recommend that you read ALL 2,482 of his contributions. It will be worth your time if you want to be a world class collector.

Here is the listings for his postings.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=28

One of my fondest memories of Tom was when we met for lunch and he proudly showed me one of his greatest purchases... A very rare submarine Navy rig that still serves as his avatar.

I recall that he paid more than $25,000 for that rig... the kind of purchase that you don't make without the knowledge to make sure you were getting the genuine article. Tom not only had that knowledge, he freely shared it with all collectors...

Rest in Peace Tom... Your legacy lives on, and you are sorely missed by those that were fortunate enough to know you personally.

-John

09-15-2015, 07:50 AM	#1
boogieman User Join Date: May 2015 Location: S. NJ Posts: 38 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Finding a fake Finding quality guns (all guns not just Lugers) with matching numbers for a reasonable price is becoming more difficult and therefore the prices continue to rise. With modern equipment its not a all difficult to stamp parts to match. Even "honest wear" can be reproduced with relative ease. How do you know you are getting the real deal? In reality I could have a set of stamps made (if not already out there) and stamp every part in a non-matching gun to match including proofs. Im sure im not unique. Are we relying on the honesty of others not to force matches? To my knowledge there is no law against this unless you deface the serial number on the frame. My question concerns newer collectors like myself. How do you keep from paying top dollar for a fake if everything looks as it should?

09-15-2015, 09:05 AM	#3
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I agree with you Don, in the end what really counts is personal experience and some reliable good books. I another forum more or less on the same topic we were talking about the fact that some books are very expensive (Clawson's on 1911) and another forum member more or less said that for instance an original Singer magazine in nice condition is probably worth $10K if you could ever find one. A field Serve replacement General Shaver mag costs about $60, and they are quite common. How many people have grossly overpaid for what they thought was a Singer magazine? He have had several General Shaver mags shown to him by guys who purchased them, thinking they were getting a Singer mag. They lost far more money in one purchase than what a Clawson books generally sells for. Rgds Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

09-15-2015, 09:23 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Experience and even then the experts sometimes get taken. Realize several things - most fake 'wear' does not look right most freshened up guns look freshened up actual patina is almost impossible to fake buying from known parties is best - however, are we talking $1000 guns or $15,000 guns? The less expensive guns are unlikely to be faked, why, because they already cost $800-$1500 to buy, what profit margin is there in doing so? When a new stamp (and most on ebay look fine to poor) - the stamp is applied over the blue, which is not how it would have been done. So, it has to be reblued, rebluing process involves what? So, to fake something is possible and there are several folks who do it as a living, but most of the time you can tell. My bigest concern is the vast majority of folks who want a 98-99% gun. They exist, but come on folks, no wear on a 80-100 year old gun? Yes, I have seen very nice ones, but like I said, too many folks want a pristine gun and they get all excited over 'pretty gun'. Heck of a lot of VERY nice Test Lugers out there IMHO Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-15-2015, 12:30 PM	#8
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	My bigest concern is the vast majority of folks who want a 98-99% gun. They exist, but come on folks, no wear on a 80-100 year old gun? Yes, I have seen very nice ones, but like I said, too many folks want a pristine gun and they get all excited over 'pretty gun'. Heck of a lot of VERY nice Test Lugers out there IMHO Ed Ed, The most amusing thing is that also where I live many "collectors" seem to look mainly for WWI/WWI pistols in mint conditions! Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

09-15-2015, 08:18 AM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,041 Posts	How? Only by experience and a a good reference library that one uses consistently. "force" matching is always detectable, even if one has to resort to x-rays! Though not always practical or cost effective. There are laws against fraud in all locations; I believe this is the issue- it is the proving that is difficult and probably more costly than the item's value that is in question. JMHO.

09-15-2015, 10:16 AM	#6
boogieman User Join Date: May 2015 Location: S. NJ Posts: 38 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	My biggest concerns would be at a gun show or similar venue where an impulse buy would be the norm. Or even a LGS where the owner thinks he is selling the real deal. I would love to see the thread/essay on detecting fakes.

09-15-2015, 03:12 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	The thread you are discussing was probably the one written by Tom Armstrong. Take a look at the FAQ and there is several things in there, how to spot cold blue, how to tell if old, etc. Most of what you are asking is simply seeing hundreds of real lugers...

09-15-2015, 04:03 PM	#10
boogieman User Join Date: May 2015 Location: S. NJ Posts: 38 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I certainly havent had my hands on many lugers. Maybe half dozen in my lifetime. I am referencing guns in general with lugers being near the high end of the list due to relative value. Another that would come to mind would be Singer 1911. Any other number of common guns that have high value sub sets like sniper models.

09-15-2015, 05:16 PM	#11
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,041 Posts	There is no quick, easy, sure, or reliable way to discern when "things" have been done. One thing you can do is avoid the "impulse", that is an excuse not a reason to buy and not a reason to skip doing "home work". You are basically asking "How do I get 1000 years of collecting experience in a pill?" - It ain't going to happen. JMHO.