1918/1920 DWM Police P 08 - a little different

[DonVoigt]

I bought this one on auction a couple weeks back, it is a Police re-purpose of a 1918 DWM with Weimar 1920 property stamping.

The "things" that are a little different include:
-Scrubbed receiver sides and re-number/inspect/re-prove markings, but scrubbed #s are 73?3
-Sear and Magazine safetys, with the mag safety clipped
-Simson E/33 barrel, 3 date, 8.82 bore diameter
-Front grip markings: S.W.1(roman).1113, canceled with Xs
So it served the Schupo of Frankfurt A/M as pistol 1113 sometime after 1922 marking orders.
-matching magazine, star/K on base, star/k on lower rear spine
-as new grips, each with star/K stamped on the inside
-replaced parts include bolt C/N #03 added, striker(e/6) no #,
mid toggle link has #03 on bottom inside, rear toggle scrubbed and
re-# 03, sear bar canceled, altered, and # 03 added, toggle
axle #03
-Crown G inspection on right chamber and Imperial eagle proof
-number font on lower is smaller than upper and appears original and same size on lower parts; upper has been re-numbered with a larger font size, Toggle train replaced and re-numbered with this larger font

I can theorize a story on this one that goes something like this:

1-An early re-work re. the C/G, perhaps 1919-1920, or after 1920 property stamping, but before 1932 when safetys were authorized.

2- A second, complete re-work after 1923, could be as late as
1932-36 when sear and mag safetys, barrel and toggle train, and perhaps upper were added during repair/refurb, refinished at that time. Toggle axle numbered. Received new magazines and grips when refurbed.

3- A third visit to a Police armory after 1937 persuant to the order to have the mag safety removed or in this case disabled by clipping the arm behind the trigger and the tab into the mag well. May have had the grip markings canceled at this time.

Now, please comment on my observations and "life story" of this
interesting Police P 08! Right or wrong, I'm here to learn.

Here are the pictures

[DonVoigt]

More pictures of 1918/1920 # 7303

[Edward Tinker]

see in caps my thoughts

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I bought this one on auction a couple weeks back, it is a Police re-purpose of a 1918 DWM with Weimar 1920 property stamping.

The "things" that are a little different include:
-Scrubbed receiver sides and re-number/inspect/re-prove markings, but scrubbed #s are 73?3 WEIRD
-Sear and Magazine safetys, with the mag safety clipped - NO SURPRISE
-Simson E/33 barrel, 3 date, 8.82 bore diameter - MANY SIMSON BARRELS WERE SITTING AT THE POLICE ARMORY
-Front grip markings: S.W.1(roman).1113, canceled with Xs
So it served the Schupo of Frankfurt A/M as pistol 1113 sometime after 1922 marking orders.
-matching magazine, star/K on base, star/k on lower rear spine
-as new grips, each with star/K stamped on the inside
-replaced parts include bolt C/N #03 added, striker(e/6) no #, I THINK THE FIRING PIN IS JUST A FIRING PIN, ALTHOUGH POSSIBLE IT WAS PUT THERE BY SIMSON, BUT THEN WOULD HAVE BEEN NUMBERED. COULD BE A ARMORER REPLACEMENT.
mid toggle link has #03 on bottom inside, rear toggle scrubbed and
re-# 03, sear bar canceled, altered, and # 03 added, toggle
axle #03
-Crown G inspection on right chamber and Imperial eagle proof -- NOTICE THE LACK OF MORE THAN ONE ACCEPTANCE MARKING - I THINK ITS A VERY LATE WAR 1918 AND PROBABLY NEVER ISSUED
-number font on lower is smaller than upper and appears original and same size on lower parts; upper has been re-numbered with a larger font size, Toggle train replaced and re-numbered with this larger font THIS WOULD NOT SURPRISE ME IF DONE BY POLICE

I can theorize a story on this one that goes something like this:

1-An early re-work re. the C/G, perhaps 1919-1920, or after 1920 property stamping, but before 1932 when safetys were authorized.

2- A second, complete re-work after 1923, could be as late as
1932-36 when sear and mag safetys, barrel and toggle train, and perhaps upper were added during repair/refurb, refinished at that time. Toggle axle numbered. Received new magazines and grips when refurbed.

3- A third visit to a Police armory after 1937 persuant to the order to have the mag safety removed or in this case disabled by clipping the arm behind the trigger and the tab into the mag well. May have had the grip markings canceled at this time.

Now, please comment on my observations and "life story" of this
interesting Police P 08! Right or wrong, I'm here to learn.

Here are the pictures

I think any of your guesses could be right. I would think probably one rework, the only thing I don't like is the cross out last two of the serial number and new one put there on the extractor. That is usually an east german thing, although its possible a unit did it - as an armory would use a spare one that was blank and renumber IMHO - and a unit (police) would have a accepted replacement marked one...

Oh, I can trade you a blank firing pin for your E6 one
I looked, I only have a 02 firing pin that is close and blank ones

[Sergio Natali]

Interesting Luger, as well as your I would say acute observations; the only thing that really looked strange to me was the cross on the two digits on the extractor.
In any case it's quite a nice Luger, congratulations.

Sergio

[DonVoigt]

Ed and Sergio, thanks.

Ed,
The E/6 pin is fine for this one, but thanks for the offer.

What do you make of the scrubbed left chamber area?

[Cpl1stNJBattB]

Nice Piece.

[Don M]

Don, this pistol does have a number of interesting features and a variety of plausible scenarios could be developed to explain them. Rather than add to them, I will offer several comments/observations.

I don't think the right side of the receiver has been scrubbed. The "C/G" is actually C/T. This acceptance stamp, along with two C/S stamps is found on virtually all 1917 and 1918 DWM P08s (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...EPTANCE-STAMPS). The lack of C/S acceptances suggests the pistol had not been fully accepted by the military by the end of the war. Many 1918 police P08s share this feature.

I question whether this pistol was reworked at the Berlin Police Armory. While the barrel certainly appears to be from Simson, the lack of a PTV/E or TP/E proof suggests this was done elsewhere, probably before 1927.

The inventory number in the Schupo marking may be 1143 but I surely will not go to the mat over this.

[DonVoigt]

Don,
thanks for your comments and observations.

Your explanation of the right side makes sense, I struggled with the crown/G, but crown/T underlined makes more sense, as a scrubbed receiver probably would not have gotten the Imperial eagle but another eagle form as proof(?).

I also agonized over 1113 and 1143, in fact I changed from 1113 to 1143 and back again! one of the "x"s over the third digit forms a perfect left stroke to a four, but in person I believe I see the one under there and not a 4.

Either way it is not a big one, as the Schupo of Frankfurt A/M was large enough to reach those numbers of pistols, I think.

It surely is an interesting pistol.

What do you make of the scrubbed left chamber and re-numbering there?

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Don M

Don, this pistol does have a number of interesting features and a variety of plausible scenarios could be developed to explain them. Rather than add to them, I will offer several comments/observations.

I don't think the right side of the receiver has been scrubbed. The "C/G" is actually C/T. This acceptance stamp, along with two C/S stamps is found on virtually all 1917 and 1918 DWM P08s (http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...EPTANCE-STAMPS). The lack of C/S acceptances suggests the pistol had not been fully accepted by the military by the end of the war. Many 1918 police P08s share this feature.

I question whether this pistol was reworked at the Berlin Police Armory. While the barrel certainly appears to be from Simson, the lack of a PTV/E or TP/E proof suggests this was done elsewhere, probably before 1927.

The inventory number in the Schupo marking may be 1143 but I surely will not go to the mat over this.

[Balder]

I love this forum

[Edward Tinker]

yes, the left side clearly shows a serial number, however, the 'scrubbed' one seems high to me?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

yes, the left side clearly shows a serial number, however, the 'scrubbed' one seems high to me?

Yes,
very high; almost like a "working number" to be later removed and re-numbered properly.

Sure is a puzzle, cause it looks like it could be the same number,
7303.

Note the round top 3 that is scrubbed, but also seen on the frame and rear toggle. The re-stamped numbers have flat top threes.

[Edward Tinker]

At some point, I think third reich era, you see curved and flat threes on the same guns.

So that is not a surprise if reworked.

Could be it was restamped because the other stamping irritated the inspector? But I would think at a factory, if being re numbered, a new frame would be used. But what order is the left side serial stamped? If one on the last, they might have said, it's fine...

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

At some point, I think third reich era, you see curved and flat threes on the same guns.

So that is not a surprise if reworked.

Could be it was restamped because the other stamping irritated the inspector? But I would think at a factory, if being re numbered, a new frame would be used. But what order is the left side serial stamped? If one on the last, they might have said, it's fine...

Thanks Ed,
but can you explain another way, the last part- I'm a little
slow this am?

[Sergio Natali]

I wouldn't knw what else to add but "it's absolutely fashinating!"

Sergio

[Dwight Gruber]

The entire toggle train was replaced by one from a five-digit commercial pistol.

I would hazard a guess that, during some event of physical refurbishment, the left receiver was "worked" sufficiently that the serial number was nearly removed. It was then re-stamped to be more easily identifiable.

--Dwight

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

The entire toggle train was replaced by one from a five-digit commercial pistol.

I would hazard a guess that, during some event of physical refurbishment, the left receiver was "worked" sufficiently that the serial number was nearly removed. It was then re-stamped to be more easily identifiable.

--Dwight

Thanks much.

How can I tell the toggle train is from a 5 digit commercial? What is the "tell"? Please.

I see it is commercial from the C/N, but the 5 digit part? Because it had only a "1" initially stamped?

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Thanks much.

How can I tell the toggle train is from a 5 digit commercial? What is the "tell"? Please.

I see it is commercial from the C/N, but the 5 digit part? Because it had only a "1" initially stamped?

The breechblock and center toggle are both numbered 031. Granted the configuration is VERY non-standard, but the numbers appear to be original and the only way for them to make sense along with the c/N proof is as the last-three-digit small part numbering of a five-digit serial number gun. The photo of the toggle-tail number is not very clear in this regard, but it appears to to overstamp another number.

--Dwight

[DonVoigt]

Thanks Dwight,

Since the numbers were out of order, I was assuming(I know, not a good idea), that the 03 related to the serial number overstamp of a commercial toggle. Now I can see due to the space, that it sort of "turns a corner" to get all 3 digits in place.

The rear number sure looks like it is struck over a scrubbed number, but I could not make out what the earlier number is.
I just had another look, I don't believe now it is over stamped, but one of the number stamps bounced and the part circle seen, is perhaps from a bounce or false strike of the 0. Rear of the toggle is very smooth and even, no signs of filing or metal removal.

The original extractor would not have been numbered on a commercial toggle, I think, so this one look like they made a mistake in numbering during re-work, stamping a "30" then canceling it, and re-stamping an 03. Maybe?

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

The breechblock and center toggle are both numbered 031. Granted the configuration is VERY non-standard, but the numbers appear to be original and the only way for them to make sense along with the c/N proof is as the last-three-digit small part numbering of a five-digit serial number gun. The photo of the toggle-tail number is not very clear in this regard, but it appears to to overstamp another number.

--Dwight

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

The breechblock and center toggle are both numbered 031. Granted the configuration is VERY non-standard, but the numbers appear to be original and the only way for them to make sense along with the c/N proof is as the last-three-digit small part numbering of a five-digit serial number gun. The photo of the toggle-tail number is not very clear in this regard, but it appears to to overstamp another number.

--Dwight

Dwight and others,
I was re-reading Sturgess green edition again today and on
page 801, lower left picture is an essentially identical breech bolt marking of 02 and horizontal 1.

Sturgess postulates that " the "1" inspection mark of the Police Inspectorate, applied internally as a component inspection acceptance mark to most small parts".

It would be interesting to know if others have or have seen this same use of the "1"

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Dwight and others,
I was re-reading Sturgess green edition again today and on
page 801, lower left picture is an essentially identical breech bolt marking of 02 and horizontal 1.

Sturgess postulates that " the "1" inspection mark of the Police Inspectorate, applied internally as a component inspection acceptance mark to most small parts".

It would be interesting to know if others have or have seen this same use of the "1"

Not that I recall

and Sturgess guess is as good as many others - a guess - his books are very good and detailed, but parts of it are not as detailed as I'd like.