1941 byf Luger

ralph a · 06-04-2015, 11:54 AM

Hello Gents, my name is Ralph Abercrombie. If any of you are active in orders and decorations forums, you will know me by reputation. I am pleased to be able to join this forum.

I seek comments on this Luger/holster, my first (potential) foray into this field. I am interested in whether it is intact or if there are replacement parts (besides the obvious modern grips), overall condition and value.

ralph a · 06-04-2015, 11:59 AM

I hope I got the order close to the recommendations I read elsewhere. And that the pictures are clear enough.

Edward Tinker · 06-04-2015, 01:14 PM

Welcome Ralph, sorry, don't follow militaria like that

I am assuming this is a East German gun? From the markings on the left near the serial number and the stamping over of the suffix on the front of the frame?

But, then i would expect to see 2/1001 on the magazines? Are they marked at all?

Otherwise, if it is a oddly stamped but correct byf with two matching police magazines, its very nice. The odd stamps hurt the value to collectors, but does not kill the value.

Ed

mrerick · 06-04-2015, 05:17 PM

Hi Ralph, and welcome to the forum.

The flash lighting makes finish difficult to judge, but this looks like a dip refinished VoPo Luger to me.

The magazine bases also have that appearance. It is what you would expect after a rework of a captured Luger.

These later Mauser made Lugers are generally very excellent mechanically, and make really good shooters.

Congratulations!

Marc

ralph a · 06-04-2015, 10:23 PM

Thank you for the replies. I'll take some better pictures, so that I might get a more definite answer. Meanwhile, here is a sampling of the sort of militaria I collect.

Note the absence of hooked crosses...

Now to find that perfect Imperial Luger...

ralph a · 06-04-2015, 11:34 PM

Here we go.

From Edward: "...from the markings on the left near the serial number and the stamping over of the suffix on the front of the frame?"

Are these what you refer to? Did you mean markings on either side of the left-side serial? Looks like four circles, and one of the circle groups is superimposed over some sort of sunburst stamp.

What is "stamping 'over of' the suffix? Please clarify, thanks!

ralph a · 06-04-2015, 11:40 PM

Maybe these pictures of the finish are better...

The finish is deep blue/black. It looks uniform except on the handles, where it is a bit worn and shows some minor pitting. VERY minor.

I got a comment that "something on the right slide appears to be a replacement part." Any idea what this is in reference to? I could not get an elaboration.

DonVoigt · 06-04-2015, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralph a

Here we go.

From Edward: "...from the markings on the left near the serial number and the stamping over of the suffix on the front of the frame?"

Are these what you refer to? Did you mean markings on either side of the left-side serial? Looks like four circles, and one of the circle groups is superimposed over some sort of sunburst stamp.

What is "stamping 'over of' the suffix? Please clarify, thanks!

Yes, these are them! East German rework, sunbursts to either side of the serial number on the left bbl. extension were over stamped before they could be imported in the '80s-90s- no "commie" imports allowed! The suffix is part of the original serial number on the frame, it is obliterated which just leaves the four digits.

What all this means is that it is an import of an east german rework of a Nazi luger, refinished and likely some parts replaced,
the magazines were numbered to match at the rework time.

To your second question, I believe the take down lever may be an E. German made replacement. if you could show a picture of all of it as close as is in
your post #6, it would help.

and Welcome.

ralph a · 06-04-2015, 11:43 PM

There are absolutely no other markings anywhere on the magazines. Is the one with the shiny heel what is known as a "forced match?" (See top of thread)

There are also no markings on the grips. But there IS this tantalizing little series of scratches (pictured twice, in different light; difficult to capture in a photo):

ralph a · 06-04-2015, 11:45 PM

I appreciate all comments and details about the pistol and its holster. The gent who is selling it wants $2500. From what I've researched here, that seems a little off...

ralph a · 06-04-2015, 11:58 PM

Don, as requested. Thanks!

wlyon · 06-04-2015, 11:59 PM

It seems more than a little off. The holster is nice say $300. The luger is mostly a shooter. $1000--1200 tops . So for me about $1000 high. I am sure others will have a different opinion. Bill

DavidJayUden · 06-05-2015, 07:30 AM

I'm with Bill on this one. It's been buggered...
dju

John Sabato · 06-05-2015, 08:57 AM

I concur with Bill. Also the magazine base on the right in your photo is not the same font as the magazine on the left. If both magazines were original to the gun, they would have the same font. I thing the mag on the right is forced matched, possibly by the East Germans.

Mac Cat · 06-05-2015, 09:58 AM

I think it's an interesting kit. The overstepping is ugly, but you can still make out the original stamps. That's all part of the history of that gun. Since it's classified as a "shooter", you should negotiate for a much lower price and then enjoy shooting with it, without fear of breaking a collectable quality gun. I'd expect it to sell for about $1200.

ralph a · 06-05-2015, 11:09 AM

Gentlemen, thank you all for your replies. I adore the pistol, and will ask the owner to re-evaluate his price. I feel confident he will; his asking price was based on what he had been told about it.

But there is one big problem.

Now I'm hooked!

Must... resist... need... more....

....where oh where will I ever find that perfect 1916/1917 Artillery DWM????

DavidJayUden · 06-05-2015, 12:33 PM

....where oh where will I ever find that perfect 1916/1917 Artillery DWM????

All it takes is money...
dju

Sergio Natali · 06-05-2015, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wlyon

It seems more than a little off. The holster is nice say $300. The luger is mostly a shooter. $1000--1200 tops . So for me about $1000 high. I am sure others will have a different opinion. Bill

I don't really know what prices are in the USA but to me the asked price is a bit of an exaggeration!
Don't worry you're not the only one that got hooked by the Luger, in a way or another here we all have been.

Sergio

rhuff · 06-05-2015, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wlyon

It seems more than a little off. The holster is nice say $300. The luger is mostly a shooter. $1000--1200 tops . So for me about $1000 high. I am sure others will have a different opinion. Bill

This ^^^^^^. That Luger is markedly overpriced....to me. This is a perfect example of "if it is a Luger, it is worth a fortune"..........just not true.

DonVoigt · 06-05-2015, 10:38 PM

Ralph, thanks for the pictures, but that is the take down "tool" on the take down latch.

I did see that part in the first post, it looks ok ; I don't know what someone sees on the right side as
"wrong" , why not ask again and find out.

As everyone has said , $2500 is twice too much, $1200 is the retail market- based on hours of looking at various sites!

06-04-2015, 11:54 AM	#1
ralph a User Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	1941 byf Luger Hello Gents, my name is Ralph Abercrombie. If any of you are active in orders and decorations forums, you will know me by reputation. I am pleased to be able to join this forum. I seek comments on this Luger/holster, my first (potential) foray into this field. I am interested in whether it is intact or if there are replacement parts (besides the obvious modern grips), overall condition and value. Attached Thumbnails

06-04-2015, 11:59 AM	#2
ralph a User Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I hope I got the order close to the recommendations I read elsewhere. And that the pictures are clear enough. Attached Thumbnails

06-04-2015, 01:14 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Welcome Ralph, sorry, don't follow militaria like that I am assuming this is a East German gun? From the markings on the left near the serial number and the stamping over of the suffix on the front of the frame? But, then i would expect to see 2/1001 on the magazines? Are they marked at all? Otherwise, if it is a oddly stamped but correct byf with two matching police magazines, its very nice. The odd stamps hurt the value to collectors, but does not kill the value. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-04-2015, 05:17 PM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Hi Ralph, and welcome to the forum. The flash lighting makes finish difficult to judge, but this looks like a dip refinished VoPo Luger to me. The magazine bases also have that appearance. It is what you would expect after a rework of a captured Luger. These later Mauser made Lugers are generally very excellent mechanically, and make really good shooters. Congratulations! Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

06-04-2015, 10:23 PM	#5
ralph a User Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thank you for the replies. I'll take some better pictures, so that I might get a more definite answer. Meanwhile, here is a sampling of the sort of militaria I collect. Note the absence of hooked crosses... Now to find that perfect Imperial Luger... Attached Thumbnails

06-04-2015, 11:34 PM	#6
ralph a User Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here we go. From Edward: "...from the markings on the left near the serial number and the stamping over of the suffix on the front of the frame?" Are these what you refer to? Did you mean markings on either side of the left-side serial? Looks like four circles, and one of the circle groups is superimposed over some sort of sunburst stamp. What is "stamping 'over of' the suffix? Please clarify, thanks! Attached Thumbnails

06-04-2015, 11:40 PM	#7
ralph a User Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Maybe these pictures of the finish are better... The finish is deep blue/black. It looks uniform except on the handles, where it is a bit worn and shows some minor pitting. VERY minor. I got a comment that "something on the right slide appears to be a replacement part." Any idea what this is in reference to? I could not get an elaboration. Attached Thumbnails

06-04-2015, 11:43 PM	#9
ralph a User Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	There are absolutely no other markings anywhere on the magazines. Is the one with the shiny heel what is known as a "forced match?" (See top of thread) There are also no markings on the grips. But there IS this tantalizing little series of scratches (pictured twice, in different light; difficult to capture in a photo): Attached Thumbnails

06-04-2015, 11:45 PM	#10
ralph a User Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I appreciate all comments and details about the pistol and its holster. The gent who is selling it wants $2500. From what I've researched here, that seems a little off...

06-04-2015, 11:58 PM	#11
ralph a User Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Don, as requested. Thanks! Attached Thumbnails

06-04-2015, 11:59 PM	#12
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,656 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,620 Times in 972 Posts	It seems more than a little off. The holster is nice say $300. The luger is mostly a shooter. $1000--1200 tops . So for me about $1000 high. I am sure others will have a different opinion. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

06-05-2015, 07:30 AM	#13
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'm with Bill on this one. It's been buggered... dju

06-05-2015, 08:57 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I concur with Bill. Also the magazine base on the right in your photo is not the same font as the magazine on the left. If both magazines were original to the gun, they would have the same font. I thing the mag on the right is forced matched, possibly by the East Germans. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-05-2015, 09:58 AM	#15
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 751 Thanks: 2,158 Thanked 630 Times in 340 Posts	I think it's an interesting kit. The overstepping is ugly, but you can still make out the original stamps. That's all part of the history of that gun. Since it's classified as a "shooter", you should negotiate for a much lower price and then enjoy shooting with it, without fear of breaking a collectable quality gun. I'd expect it to sell for about $1200.

06-05-2015, 11:09 AM	#16
ralph a User Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Gentlemen, thank you all for your replies. I adore the pistol, and will ask the owner to re-evaluate his price. I feel confident he will; his asking price was based on what he had been told about it. But there is one big problem. Now I'm hooked! Must... resist... need... more.... ....where oh where will I ever find that perfect 1916/1917 Artillery DWM????

06-05-2015, 12:33 PM	#17
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	....where oh where will I ever find that perfect 1916/1917 Artillery DWM???? All it takes is money... dju

06-05-2015, 10:38 PM	#20
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,041 Posts	Ralph, thanks for the pictures, but that is the take down "tool" on the take down latch. I did see that part in the first post, it looks ok ; I don't know what someone sees on the right side as "wrong" , why not ask again and find out. As everyone has said , $2500 is twice too much, $1200 is the retail market- based on hours of looking at various sites!