Need some expert opinions please!

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by El Syd

Adriaan - thanks for your input. I'm glad nothing glares out at you and you speak highly of Tom Whiteman as the rest of this forum does.

John - thank you as well for your detailed description of the pistol, mags, tool and particularly the holster. You just can't get this info in a book. I bought "Lugers at Random" and they do not even mention Black Widows in it which seems kind of odd. But maybe back in the day it was published, the BWs were the "red headed step children at a family reunion" from what I've picked up in my readings on this forum.

Thanks again to everyone for their help. I'll give Tom a call and maybe we can get something worked out. Best to all, Syd

Syd,

You are welcome.

You will not see the term Black Widow in older books. Some of the newer books use the term. This is because the term has absolutely no relevance to the manufacture of the P.08, or its usage in the field, or the unit to which it was assigned.

Therefore to the serious collector it has no relevance whatsoever. At best, it may be given a status as some sub-variation i.e. examples of late war Mauser production.

Don and Joop in the Mauser Parabellum acknowledge the term ascribing it to the USA Based Marketing and Selling Machine in order to hype its characteristics and therefore be able to charge more for a standard issue gun, made late in the war so its finish was poor due to less polishing; its magazines and grip panels made of plastic to save costs and increase sturdiness (the walnut grip panels were very susceptible to cracking in the field).

AND IT WORKED!! Sadly they were successful beyond their dreams and hundreds of 41 byf pistols with one matching or perhaps a non-matching correct magazine were converted to Black Widows. I have even seen guns made before the byf era "converted" to Black Widows even though the black grip panels and black bottom magazines did not exist before 1941. And people buy them, pay exorbitant prices and believe they have a rare pistol. Or one used by the dreaded Gestapo or the murderous SS.

And it goes on today and honest 1941s, and to a lesser extent, 1942 donor guns lose their collector value and are lost forever as "original/correct" examples of WWII production. They don't have to worry about grips matching. No worries about matching serial numbers on the magazines. In an instant, they create a fully matching rig with gun, 2 "correct' magazine and a period correct tool, a holster picked up at a gun show. Instant complete and matching rig and because it is a "Black Widow" sold for $1000-1500 more than they could get for the honest gun.

Okay, okay, I'll stop my rant and get off my soap box. But serious collectors take their responsibilities seriously. We are custodians of pieces of history to be preserved and passed down to following generations. We should not be manufacturing pieces of history, passing it off as something more valuable or mysterious or whatever.

JMVHO. Sorry if I have offended anyone. And... sorry for the long post. But if just one person reads this, gets a little more educated, and understands what a Black Widow really is; or IS NOT, then I will have done my job.

John