The Mauser 20 shot at RIA

conehammer · 03-20-2015, 07:04 PM

I looked over the photos of this 20 shot and the rear sight mount doesn't look right, at least it doesn't appear to match what the description says.

The description states "....the early style tangent rear that is held in by a pin driven in from the side...."

However all the photos seem to show a later type press fit that was held in by spring pressure. Maybe it's just my old eyes but what do you guys think?

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/64/lid/3312

On second look and by comparison to photos in my books I'm leaning towards it being an optical trick of the light against the pin making it look
larger than it is, like the depression formed by the later type sight mount point....

Obviously I've been going around on this one.................

Comparing a later model Broomhandle with this one I have to believe it's the later type sight....

The 20 shot on top and a later small ring on the bottom, both from this auction.

Jerry

conehammer · 03-26-2015, 09:41 AM

I asked RIA about this piece and never received a reply. I guess it was a real noob question not deserving an answer. Mauser's penchant for assembling C96 pistols from earlier parts is well known. If this pistol is an authentic mix of parts that's wonderful but all I asked for is for the accepted view of this particular pistol.

Their own description doesn't match the pistol in question. I pointed this out. Makes me question their appraisal and inspection methods.

I have not heard a peep from them.

Jerry

mahd776 · 03-26-2015, 12:59 PM

Did you email or call them. I have been at there place on inspection day and they have employees on cell phones talking to potential buyers who have questions about a particular firearm. They get the firearm and answer questions about it then and there. Might be worth a call if you have not.

conehammer · 03-26-2015, 02:39 PM

I've sent 2 emails to them. I will call them.

Sergio Natali · 03-26-2015, 02:51 PM

Surely from the pictures I can't really tell for sure, but in any case an answer would always be due, it's just a matter of politeness.

Sergio

alvin · 03-26-2015, 08:54 PM

The text description has some errors. The gun looks correct to me. At least, the gun does not show any obvious issue.

From pictures, the stock has to be check more carefully. It's very unusual having matching stock looking much better than gun. But this rig is such an example. Say, stock is re-oiled. That's OK. But if it's a replica, then that affects value a lot. We don't know by ad pictures. Also, the position of the s/n on the attaching iron is not shown. Definitely need more stock pictures from different viewing angles, also stock interior pictures to tell more.

Proxibid.com lists it at starting price of $13K, very reasonable. But Invaluable.com lists it at starting price of $25K.... so $25K might be its reserve. At $25K, the cost will be near $30K when 15% BP is included. But who knows, this gun could go there.

alvin · 03-26-2015, 09:33 PM

Regarding the sight mounting, there are both pinned and pivot sight on flatside 20-shot examples. But I have never seen a 20-shot coming with 100-1000 sight leaf -- that should be an error in description, Supposed being 1-10 sight leaf. The side notch of the leaf also indicates it's a 1-10 leaf. I will be very surprised it's indeed 100-1000. The sight parts are supposed being numbered to the gun.

The sight ramp of 20-shot looks correct. The sight ramp on that VL&D small ring also looks right.

Another flatside 20-shot sold by Hermann-Historica a few years ago, it has pivot sight (see picture). Yet another flatside 20-shot was printed on Joe Schroeder's "Gun Collector's Digest" (4th Ed). Owner was C&R dealer Randall Bessler. He acquired it in poor shape. Unfortunately, he hired a professional having it refurbished. But that's irrelevant. Gale Morgan showed its coming shape - "1300 Grams of Rust". It's obviously original before restoration. It has pivot sight too. There is no doubt on some 20-shot flatside coming with pivot sight.

conehammer · 03-26-2015, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

The text description has some errors. The gun looks correct to me. At least, the gun does not show any obvious issue.

From pictures, the stock has to be check more carefully. It's very unusual having matching stock looking much better than gun. But this rig is such an example. Say, stock is re-oiled. That's OK. But if it's a replica, then that affects value a lot. We don't know by ad pictures. Also, the position of the s/n on the attaching iron is not shown. Definitely need more stock pictures from different viewing angles, also stock interior pictures to tell more.

Proxibid.com lists it at starting price of $13K, very reasonable. But Invaluable.com lists it at starting price of $25K.... so $25K might be its reserve. At $25K, the cost will be near $30K when 15% BP is included. But who knows, this gun could go there.

There is a photo of the serial number of the attaching iron on the stock I believe.

The stock condition and the difference of the finish between the frame of the pistol and the barrel extension bother me somewhat. What they would age differentially is troublesome to me. I would have expected them to have faded or worn at the same rate at least on the barrel. I realize with the various contours of the rear of the extension they may protect the finish somewhat but not the barrel and not the side rails.

Jerry

alvin · 03-26-2015, 11:05 PM

Yeah.. the upper receiver has more finish than grip frame. Some time in its tool stage, light rust grew on the grip frame, and owner lightly polished it with sandpaper, so blue on frame gone with the rust. That the best way I can think of on this imbalance of finish.

conehammer · 03-27-2015, 01:53 PM

I did get a photo from RIA that confirms the rear sight is graduated 1-10 as we would expect.

Jerry

alvin · 03-28-2015, 07:48 AM

The biggest issue of this rig is probably the price. Albert mentioned seller wanted $25K. Obviously, no one took it, so it's consigned to RIAC, probably with reserve of $25K.

The relative value can be measured by #98 flatside sold by Holt's Auction a few years ago. #98 is super well balanced, with considerable amount of original finish, the only drawback was (1) the front sight was modified; (2) the magazine spring was replaced by a Schnellfeuer spring. It sold 22,000 British Pounds. One British Pound was about $1.6 USD ... so USD $35,200.

If RIAC #92 goes $28,750 ($25K with 15% BP), the price is $6,450 lower than #98. If #92 indeed goes RIAC's low estimate ($27,500 + 15% = $31,625), it would appear relatively expensive than #98 (although the absolute value is still $3,575 lower than #98's final price, but the extra finish on #98 counts more than 10% in price difference IMO).

#98 sold by British a few years ago attached for reference.

alvin · 03-28-2015, 08:15 AM

But who knows.... 20CH #9686 from Sturgess collection sold $32,500 just a few weeks ago, BP included is $37,375. With replaced grip panels, and mismatched stock. And,,, that stock interior was enlarged crudely by a previous owner, now only its "skin" left. Relatively speaking, it's less attractive than this RIAC #92 when everything is combined under consideration. Obviously, the volume of 20CH is so tiny, totally depends on bidders' will. I guess the youtube.com video on #9686 posted by forgottenweapons helped its sale.

conehammer · 03-28-2015, 02:59 PM

I don't pay attention to all the auctions and sales like you do Alvin. While I have a strong interest in the C96 it still takes a back seat to my primary hobby- 1/10 scale armor and military vehicles.

I want a 20 shot very much but I don't bid on one because I know I'll likely over pay. The one RIA has is basically acceptable to me but I know it will go far higher than I'm comfortable with. I also like the cased Borchardt they have, I've also admired Borchardts for years.

I probably should pay more attention to 20 shots that come up but the originals, not made up replicas are so few and far between.

So what to do, what to do......

May be I should just stick to my main hobby....

Jerry

alvin · 03-28-2015, 05:03 PM

It's not easy to find "deal" in big auctions.

Visited Amoskeag Auction preview, they carry a M1930 in this session so I'd like to take a look. The gun is not bad, but that leather covered stock is not correct type for the gun. For this M1930, remote bidders pushed it to $4000, with BP the total will be $4600. Not a good deal.

03-20-2015, 07:04 PM	#1
conehammer User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 116 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 21 Posts	The Mauser 20 shot at RIA I looked over the photos of this 20 shot and the rear sight mount doesn't look right, at least it doesn't appear to match what the description says. The description states "....the early style tangent rear that is held in by a pin driven in from the side...." However all the photos seem to show a later type press fit that was held in by spring pressure. Maybe it's just my old eyes but what do you guys think? http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/64/lid/3312 On second look and by comparison to photos in my books I'm leaning towards it being an optical trick of the light against the pin making it look larger than it is, like the depression formed by the later type sight mount point.... Obviously I've been going around on this one................. Comparing a later model Broomhandle with this one I have to believe it's the later type sight.... The 20 shot on top and a later small ring on the bottom, both from this auction. Jerry Attached Thumbnails

03-26-2015, 02:51 PM	#5
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Surely from the pictures I can't really tell for sure, but in any case an answer would always be due, it's just a matter of politeness. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

03-26-2015, 09:33 PM	#7
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Regarding the sight mounting, there are both pinned and pivot sight on flatside 20-shot examples. But I have never seen a 20-shot coming with 100-1000 sight leaf -- that should be an error in description, Supposed being 1-10 sight leaf. The side notch of the leaf also indicates it's a 1-10 leaf. I will be very surprised it's indeed 100-1000. The sight parts are supposed being numbered to the gun. The sight ramp of 20-shot looks correct. The sight ramp on that VL&D small ring also looks right. Another flatside 20-shot sold by Hermann-Historica a few years ago, it has pivot sight (see picture). Yet another flatside 20-shot was printed on Joe Schroeder's "Gun Collector's Digest" (4th Ed). Owner was C&R dealer Randall Bessler. He acquired it in poor shape. Unfortunately, he hired a professional having it refurbished. But that's irrelevant. Gale Morgan showed its coming shape - "1300 Grams of Rust". It's obviously original before restoration. It has pivot sight too. There is no doubt on some 20-shot flatside coming with pivot sight. Attached Thumbnails

03-28-2015, 07:48 AM	#11
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The biggest issue of this rig is probably the price. Albert mentioned seller wanted $25K. Obviously, no one took it, so it's consigned to RIAC, probably with reserve of $25K. The relative value can be measured by #98 flatside sold by Holt's Auction a few years ago. #98 is super well balanced, with considerable amount of original finish, the only drawback was (1) the front sight was modified; (2) the magazine spring was replaced by a Schnellfeuer spring. It sold 22,000 British Pounds. One British Pound was about $1.6 USD ... so USD $35,200. If RIAC #92 goes $28,750 ($25K with 15% BP), the price is $6,450 lower than #98. If #92 indeed goes RIAC's low estimate ($27,500 + 15% = $31,625), it would appear relatively expensive than #98 (although the absolute value is still $3,575 lower than #98's final price, but the extra finish on #98 counts more than 10% in price difference IMO). #98 sold by British a few years ago attached for reference. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

03-28-2015, 02:59 PM	#13
conehammer User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 116 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 21 Posts	I don't pay attention to all the auctions and sales like you do Alvin. While I have a strong interest in the C96 it still takes a back seat to my primary hobby- 1/10 scale armor and military vehicles. I want a 20 shot very much but I don't bid on one because I know I'll likely over pay. The one RIA has is basically acceptable to me but I know it will go far higher than I'm comfortable with. I also like the cased Borchardt they have, I've also admired Borchardts for years. I probably should pay more attention to 20 shots that come up but the originals, not made up replicas are so few and far between. So what to do, what to do...... May be I should just stick to my main hobby.... Jerry Attached Thumbnails

03-26-2015, 09:41 AM	#2
conehammer User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 116 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 21 Posts	I asked RIA about this piece and never received a reply. I guess it was a real noob question not deserving an answer. Mauser's penchant for assembling C96 pistols from earlier parts is well known. If this pistol is an authentic mix of parts that's wonderful but all I asked for is for the accepted view of this particular pistol. Their own description doesn't match the pistol in question. I pointed this out. Makes me question their appraisal and inspection methods. I have not heard a peep from them. Jerry

03-26-2015, 12:59 PM	#3
mahd776 User Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 29 Thanks: 2 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Did you email or call them. I have been at there place on inspection day and they have employees on cell phones talking to potential buyers who have questions about a particular firearm. They get the firearm and answer questions about it then and there. Might be worth a call if you have not.

03-26-2015, 02:39 PM	#4
conehammer User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 116 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 21 Posts	I've sent 2 emails to them. I will call them.

03-26-2015, 08:54 PM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The text description has some errors. The gun looks correct to me. At least, the gun does not show any obvious issue. From pictures, the stock has to be check more carefully. It's very unusual having matching stock looking much better than gun. But this rig is such an example. Say, stock is re-oiled. That's OK. But if it's a replica, then that affects value a lot. We don't know by ad pictures. Also, the position of the s/n on the attaching iron is not shown. Definitely need more stock pictures from different viewing angles, also stock interior pictures to tell more. Proxibid.com lists it at starting price of $13K, very reasonable. But Invaluable.com lists it at starting price of $25K.... so $25K might be its reserve. At $25K, the cost will be near $30K when 15% BP is included. But who knows, this gun could go there.

03-26-2015, 11:05 PM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Yeah.. the upper receiver has more finish than grip frame. Some time in its tool stage, light rust grew on the grip frame, and owner lightly polished it with sandpaper, so blue on frame gone with the rust. That the best way I can think of on this imbalance of finish.

03-27-2015, 01:53 PM	#10
conehammer User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 116 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 21 Posts	I did get a photo from RIA that confirms the rear sight is graduated 1-10 as we would expect. Jerry

03-28-2015, 08:15 AM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	But who knows.... 20CH #9686 from Sturgess collection sold $32,500 just a few weeks ago, BP included is $37,375. With replaced grip panels, and mismatched stock. And,,, that stock interior was enlarged crudely by a previous owner, now only its "skin" left. Relatively speaking, it's less attractive than this RIAC #92 when everything is combined under consideration. Obviously, the volume of 20CH is so tiny, totally depends on bidders' will. I guess the youtube.com video on #9686 posted by forgottenweapons helped its sale.

03-28-2015, 05:03 PM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	It's not easy to find "deal" in big auctions. Visited Amoskeag Auction preview, they carry a M1930 in this session so I'd like to take a look. The gun is not bad, but that leather covered stock is not correct type for the gun. For this M1930, remote bidders pushed it to $4000, with BP the total will be $4600. Not a good deal.