Another .45 Caliber Luger Mystery

[Vlim]

Hmm,

Interesting concept. By reducing the number of rounds (and using some slightly more blunt-tipped round) someone managed to retain the original magazine length, thus retaining the default frame.

Markings appear to be the standard DWM inspection marks. Indication that a standard DWM frame was used.

I wonder why the sideplate has been redesigned. Probably to hold a longer lever, but this would mean that the sear bar has also been modified? There appears to be some extra milling done on the left outside of the frame. Would love to see pictures of an exposed receiver side, the sear bar and the inside of the side plate.

All in all, I think the balance of this pistol isn't going to be very good and I also don't think the frame and the receiver will have a long life if this pistol would be fired frequently. After all, these were the parts modified by Georg Luger in his trial version, and I don't think he did that just for fun

[John Sabato]

Gerben, I think the sideplate is late version Swiss in origin. They have a full length rib on them, instead of the three-quarter length German type.

I agree with your assessment that this frame would not be as durable as one designed with the .45 ACP in mind.

[John Sabato]

Two new photos have been received by email from Cap'n Monty...(full size versions are available in the Member Gallery Album.

The left side view with the grips removed:



...and a photo of the boltface that cleary shows that the standard 9mm boltface was opened up to allow the use of .45 ACP.



I should have the CD photos in a couple of days, and will post them next week, or earlier if I get the chance.

[Vlim]

Hi John,

Good eye, never noticed the 1929+ sideplate difference. This one does look slightly different, however (a bit more angular) and I think it was custom made for this gun.

It looks like the rear of the trigger guard is opened up somewhat to facilitate a slightly longer trigger pull. I guess the trigger lever inside the side plate is also modified to push a tad further than normal.

[John Sabato]

Gerben, if it is using a standard receiver and a standard bolt/sear (only opened for .45 ACP) then I can't imagine why a longer lever would be necessary since the geometry is the same... ???

I can't tell about the trigger guard opening from these photos... perhaps the photos on the CD will tell the story about that...

[Waschbaer]

Now that's a B.F.G.! In a defensive situation I'd expect both the person in front and the person holding the gun to be in grave danger from this pistol. It is very nicely finished though, I must comment. All in all, I wouldn't want it, except maybe to trade for something else, and then I'd be afraid of liability issues. --tom

[Vlim]

John,

That's why I'd like to see a picture of the disassemled sideplate and the sear bar

I'm curious what was done with them and for what reason (other than trigger pull improvement?)...

[John Sabato]

Okay all you Luger Afficianado's, the photos are here and have been posted in the Member Gallery.

I just added 44 new photos to the album. Enough to answer all your curiosity...

It is MNSHO that this gun was created by a gunsmith (likely here in the U.S.) some years ago just to see if it could be done... and it obviously was. It is unfortunate that the "re-maker" of this gun chose a fairly rare A.F. Stoeger import that would have been a valuable gun in it's own right, as the basis for this project. The value of that gun is forever lost.

The value of this gun in it's current condition is a good question... and I guess it would be whatever somebody wanted to pay for it.

When I have more time, I will critique the construction and remake of this gun and reference the photos... but in the mean time, enjoy the photo album and please comment where you see things that are non-standard.

My only comment in this post will be that it "appears" that the serial number on the front of the frame has been altered... Sorry Cap'n Monty... I know that isn't good news, but I really believe that is the case. The font used for the number "3" doesn't match the flat-topped font for all the other "3's" on the gun...and the grind marks on the front of the frame look like a dressed weld to me...



I think it is a dandy conversation piece, (and I wish it were mine ), but I would question the safety of firing it... despite some obvious reinforcement of the breechblock... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

enjoy! now let's hear those comments folks! ...and be gentle... Cap'n Monty is good people.

[Dean]

This is what I like about this site. Thanks John & Monty for the pictures.

Well, almost "Enough to answer all your curiosity..."

Still would like to see what the chamber looks like. But the other photos are great.

As far as strength goes, I would hope that the gunsmith was wise to run a few strong rounds through it to ensure safety. But I guess we can't assume anything.

Monty, don't fire the cheap Wolf ammo in this gun. If you are tempted to fire it, find a nice low pressure, target round.

[Edward Tinker]

Well, we can say it is unsafe, etc., but I would LOVE to own it! Might pop a few rounds through it, might not.

Although the 45 ACP SAAMI is 21,000 and the 9mm Luger SAAMI is 35,000?

So, its pressure in the chamber is 1/3 less? I imagine the opinion is that a lot more metal is missing and thus not as safe?

Ed

[Navy]

A magnificent fantasy piece! Were it mine, I'd have someone custom load some light .45 ACP and take it to the range occasionally just for the "head turning" quotient.

Gotta be some grins there!

Tom A.

[Pete Ebbink]

Fellows (and gals...),

What is the legal status of owning such a piece that has had its original serial number altered ?

Is our new member at risk with the BATF...???

Are custom gunsmiths allowed to do so and re-issue with their own numbers ?

I know Mike Krause makes such pieces from scratch and sequentially numbers his pieces.

How does John Martz handle the serial number when he ends with with one "new" gun made of two cut-up guns ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Edward Tinker]

I would think this section, on manufacturing of a firearm would probably cover this? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">�§ 5842. Identification of firearms
(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices. - Each manufacturer
and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a
destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not
be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer,
or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations
prescribe.
(b) Firearms without serial number. - Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">

[Waschbaer]

The owner of the gun store for whom I used to work explained to me that certain guns were grandfathered in if they were made before serial numbers were required. We had several entries in the "bound books" which listed make model and "no serial number" for older guns. I'm guessing this pistol was converted some time ago, but there's no way of telling. If Cap'n Monty is concerned about his pistol, he can always personally register it with the BATF as a Stoeger Luger with the serial number which is currently on the gun (or so I would think). As usual, what the law actually says doesn't really matter, the law is whatever the officer making the arrest happens to believe it to be at the time charges are brought. The gun may be seized or it may not, however coming forward and declaring a belief that the serial number may have been altered, with a statement that it was not done by or with the knowledge/consent of the current owner (id est cap'n monty) should pretty much clear any suspicions on BATF's part. They are, after all, human just like the rest of us, even if they have an often unpleasant job to do. However, it appears that the pistol was professionally done, and especially if the pistol was purchased from a licensed dealer with a form 4473, then the number is already on record (with the dealer), and it's not the Captains problem if it was altered somewhere in its rather long and convoluted history. Just my 2 cents, this is not given or meant to be taken as legal advice by anyone under any circumstances and may contain errors, etc. legal disclaimer et al... Tom.

[John Sabato]

well said Tom.

...and Dean, Cap'n Monty said he will take chamber photos this evening and email them to me. I will post them as soon as I get them.

[Dean]

No Rush. It's some amazing 'smithin. Check out how steep the angle of the bullets are in the mag in picture 47 of the gallery.

I wonder if the "creator" custom loaded a round specifically for this gun. A .45 with a shorter OAL?

[John Sabato]

hard to say Dean, but the two photos of the chamber have been received and posted in the Member Gallery Album.

Here is a compressed peek...

<a href="http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralbums/CaptainMonty45/Chamber_bottom.sized.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralbums/CaptainMonty45/Chamber_bottom.sized.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

You are certainly right about 'some amazing' gunsmithing... You can tell it was a labor of love...

Any other areas of this pistol that you want to see? Just let me or Monty know. Cap'n Monty has been happy to pull the trigger on his camera as the extensive photo album in the Member Gallery attests...