Erfurt 1914

[foxdoublegunner]

Gentlemen,
I have the opportunity to purchase an Erfurt P08 1914 with all matching serial numbers (exception of the magazines) and original finish. It is marked Germany on the frame which I understand indicates that it was exported to the States sometime after the war. It has a three digit serial number. The bore looks clean and there is little surface damage. The owner has offered to sell for 1740 including two wood bottom magazines. I have attached pictures for reference. Please give me your opinions. It would be a collector piece with occasional firing.

Thank you

[Norme]

Hi Ricardo, Welcome to the forum! The finish on this 1914 Erfurt does look original, but I have to tell you that most collectors consider the "GERMANY" marking to be a negative. I would value this gun about $500.00 less than the seller is asking.
Regards, Norm

[lugerholsterrepair]

The right side of the rear sight is badly damaged..The grips are pretty worn. I agree with Norm but with what I see I would not be so generous. $8-900 would be tops for me.

[foxdoublegunner]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for the feedback. Perhaps my cell phone camera doesn't do the pistol justice.
While it bears the scars of honest wear, in person it doesn't look abused in any way and in fact it looks quite respectable compared to many samples I have seen. I am a novice though when it comes to Lugers, despite having collected firearms for a number of years.
The Germany stamp is a concern to me, but I have a Bavarian M1 carbine from the CMP that is a jewel and in that case the German and Austrian provenance is a collector plus. Many Lugers that I have come across are either mix masters or refinish jobs. With few exceptions they are running in the high 1800's to mid 2500's for an imperial luger with low serial number so this sample appears fairly priced in comparison. Can you give me an idea of how much the Germany stamp might affect value and is the low serial number/good mechanical condition/matching serial numbers offset that to any extent. The owner disassembled the pistol and removed the grips for me. I was pleased to see that even the grips had the proper serial number and stamp. Do you think that the grips would be worth cleaning up if I ended up purchasing the pistol?

Thank you

[lugerholsterrepair]

With few exceptions they are running in the high 1800's to mid 2500's for an imperial luger with low serial number so this sample appears fairly priced in comparison.

Look I hate to seem argumentative but you are not hearing...THE REAR SIGHT IS SMASHED! This is more serious than GERMANY or worn grips or whatever else concerns you. It affects the PRICE a great deal IMO. It's not like it was the front sight in that it cannot be replaced. You seem to be ignoring this.
Low serial numbers mean..well..NOTHING. What means anything is matching and condition. You are missing 50% OF THAT EQUATION.
It would be a collector piece..well sort of a collector piece... with a SMASHED OFF REAR SIGHT! In collector circles a SMASHED OFF REAR SIGHT is a serious negotiation for a price adjustment even if you want a pistol with a SMASHED OFF REAR SIGHT. Take a look..it's right over there..and one last piece of advice..when you go to sell this pistol the buyer is going to hit you over the head with LOOK! A SMASHED OFF REAR SIGHT!

Hey good Luck! It's your hard earned after tax cash.

[foxdoublegunner]

Jerry,
I appreciate your insight. I ask questions concerning relative importance of various aspects of the pistol in order to learn and compare with my experience collecting other firearms. If the damaged rear sight is of overwhelming importance in the realm of lugers, compared to other aspects that I have mentioned, then that is what I need to hear. It is not what I would have expected, but that is why I asked for the opinions of experts.
I look forward to learning more as I continue the search.

Have a good weekend,
Ricardo

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

The right side of the rear sight is badly damaged..The grips are pretty worn. I agree with Norm but with what I see I would not be so generous. $8-900 would be tops for me.

I agree with the price if $800 is tops...The rear sight does not look as bad to me as Jerry has described, but I agree that to a *collector* this is a deal-breaker. It's a shooter. It's too bad the Russians didn't capture this one - They'd have fixed it up nicely!

[sheepherder]

BTW, looking at your 1914 Erfurt toggle assembly, and specifically the rear sight, I notice it has a chamfer on the leading edge of the sight...

Perhaps our Erfurt experts can answer - Is this common/exclusive to Erfurts??? I have five toggle assemblies here, mostly DWM, and none have this chamfer...

I was going to say that if it were mine, I would take a skim cut off the top of the sight to cut away most of the gouges, and then take a shallow cut with a chamfer cutter to restore that chamfer...

Hmmmm???

It'd still be a shooter...But somewhat better looking...

And an additional BTW - The three digit serial number happens every 901 times out of 10,000...(One and two digit numbers the same)...If the suffix goes out to six letters (as an example) then that's 9,010 Lugers with a three digit serial...Not anything special...

...Although a serial of 666 was advertised on GB some time ago as 'rare, special'...

Someone please correct my math...

[lugerholsterrepair]

Don't misinterpret my message. It's all about purchase price. The pistol can and should be restored. it's a worthwhile project. To be done right takes time and money, why overpay?

[foxdoublegunner]

Shepherder,
Thanks for the additional input. If I decide to go through with this and make an offer, I will keep that in mind. It doesn't sound like too difficult a task for a gunsmith and the damage didn't look too deep when I looked at it.
It is interesting to hear from the long time Luger collectors what they consider as deal breakers compared to what is acceptable in the context of other factors. For instance I have no interest whatsoever in owning a Nazi era Luger even if it were a rare example in excellent condition offered at a reasonable price. They have no allure for me. However, I have always been interested in artifacts from the "Great War" hence my desire to acquire an example of an Imperial Luger. Artifacts in original condition with wear indicative of honest use, possibly in combat, are also of interest to me because they display their history rather than refinished or pristine examples which strike me as sterile. That is all part of the fun of collecting-each can indulge their particular interests.
By the way, if it is of any importance, the serial number is a straight three digits without any suffix. Is it true that ERFURT produced about 7000 of the P08 model in 1914? The two magazines which would come with this are both the wooden base variety in good serviceable shape. On line I am seeing them offered from $150-200 although I am sure that those with more experience can locate them for considerably cheaper.

Regards,
Ricardo

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by foxdoublegunner

...The two magazines which would come with this are both the wooden base variety in good serviceable shape...

Welcome to the forum Ricardo.

One aspect of old wood-bottom mags is their potential frailty due to age. The can, and do, break during use--the wood bottom cracks enough to release it from the mag body, and its remnants, along with the mag spring, go flying.

Common practice is to reserve the originals for display, and shoot with new MecGar mags. The latter are available sporadically, so score a couple at normal retail when you see they are available at the usual suppliers!

Restoration of a Luger is a nice thing, I'd say. But you'll be happier if you do not pay full retail for a gun that "needs" this kind of work. I doubt the seller will be willing to drop far enough to make the deal, but it's worth a try. In the end, the decision is all yours, so if you, yourself, are happy and satisfied with whatever deal you can hammer out, then all is good.

The other guys are correct about the relative irrelevance of a 1,2, or 3-digit serial number.

[rhuff]

I do not know where that you live, and how scarce Lugers for sale are to find. Different areas of the Country have different values placed on Lugers, depending on availability, etc.

I would not be interested in that Erfurt at the asking price under any situation. One can purchase a lot of Luger(great condition etc.) for that amount of money. It all boils down to what you want and are willing to pay for it. Try not to let desire overcome reality.

[wlyon]

The serial number without a suffix is not meaningful except it was one of the early 1914 production. With the exception of a few in 1910, 1914 was the lowest production year. Again not really significant unless looking for all years. Erfurt mags. are somewhat different than DWM's. They are a slightly different color and the stake marks are different. If the mags with this are both wood bottoms maybe one will turn out to be an Erfurt. As to the finish would take an in hand examination. It doesn't appear to have been polished or buffed so finish may well be original. I assume you will have a few days inspection period? Only then will you really know the whole story. For what it's worth I would not pay over $1000 for this and then the mags would need to be reasonably good. Happy collecting and ask all the questions you want. That's what this Forum is about. Bill

[Edward Tinker]

No idea where you live, since you didn't put that in your profile...

But where I have lived and visited, $1740 plus taxes would buy me a pretty nice luger. When first looking for one, they seem scarce. Trust me, they are not, there are hundreds on line from reputable sellers - there is no reason to jump right onto this one.

I am assuming you have some good luger books? I have always felt that before buying a luger you should buy a couple of good books (note, many are fine, some are much better).

If you want pre-WW2, good, lots of them out there.

Ed