Curious about VoPo valuation...

[mrerick]

I'm working to try and help my LGS value a customer's consignment gun. It's a fairly interesting Luger, with enough unusual characteristics that I'd like some more opinions about collector and retail values...

It's a 1921 dated DWM manufactured Luger in the 895xx serial number range.

Weimar military unit marking to an artillery regiment on the front grip strap. Probably one of 1,500 military DWM 9mm Lugers shipped before Versailles drove things to Simson & Co.

Almost, but not quite, matching with the wrong rear axle pin. The hold open and sear are also unmarked. I haven't pulled the grips, which are plastic VoPo.

Import marked but cannot read the importer info (perhaps Sam Cummings Interarms? ) on the bottom of the barrel.

It is so sharp and crisp that it looks like it may never have been issued or used in the Weimar period.

The kicker is that it's a VoPo Luger in what looks like un-issued condition since it's rework. The Russian Capture "X" is on the rear axle pin, and not on the frame or receiver. It has two number matching DDR manufactured 2/1001 code Haenel Schmeisser (fxo like) milled magazines numbered 1 and 2 and what must be a VoPo tool. They also appear unissued. It was dipped completely, but not buffed. Edges are straight and sharp like a new Luger.

So, not a traditional collectable Luger, but one that a VoPo collector would certainly want.

Thoughts? (I may be able to provide photos soon)...

Thanks in advance! Marc

[Edward Tinker]

Marc, to me, vopo is East German and Russian Capture was released by russians IMO - sometimes I think the 'x' is just sometimes a 'x' and not the one associated with the russian captures...

Ed

[sheepherder]

I was all ready to disagree with Ed, but he didn't respond...

IMO, a VoPo/RC Luger has a certain continuity of purpose to it. The Lugers collectors seek had a continuity that ended in 1945 (or 1919); VoPo/RC Lugers (and P-38's) continued in use until 19??. Whether they were carried by some lonely railroad guard on the Sino-Soviet border or languished in a warehouse somewhere, they were still continuing their history. We'll never really know what that history was.

I would value a VoPo/RC the same as I would any Luger. If all matching (original number match), then a premium for that condition. If force matched, on the high side for a shooter (because it probably has a new barrel). High side shooter to me is $850+; a matching 'premium' would be $1250+. That would be for DWM's; I would consider more for an Erfurt, Simson, or Krieghoff.

But I should point out, I am just Joe Crap the ragman; Bubba with a sticky bun in one hand at a gun show.

[Edward Tinker]

from what have read and heard

vopo's were used by border police, etc

russian capture were stored and not used

[mrerick]

Well, this just got more interesting. The consignee made me an offer I couldn't refuse... I'll have this one later today.

Pictures when I can set things up.

This is as "pure" a captured and dipped gun as I've seen. Must have been an early Interarms import.

Here's a picture I shot at the store:

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

from what have read and heard

vopo's were used by border police, etc

russian capture were stored and not used

Ed -

Is that covered in your book? Or can you describe which Lugers were refurbished & issued to the Volkspolizei and which were put straight into storage for Russian use??? (Or were the Russian storage Lugers refurbished as well?)

I'm assuming they were all Russian captures originally.

[Edward Tinker]

From what I understand - and have read in Marschal Dieters books - east german lugers were refurbished, fixed up, and used (plus a few were made) - from what I understand that the russians captured stocks and from surrendering soldiers and like most things, just boxed up and sent back to the USSR on trains. Then stored either dipped before and then stored in oil or were dipped for resale to the west.

Anyway, I apologize Marc for getting everything off subject! Looks like a very nice vopo / is that a weimar army marking? Looks like WW1, but the rest is weimar.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Anyway, I apologize Marc for getting everything off subject!

I'm not sure it's all off-topic. I've understood, from reading here, Still's Forum, SurplusRifles.com, and ArfCom, that all VoPo refurbished Lugers were made up from Russian capture stocks. But now you seem to be saying that Russian captures not sent to East German Police were stored as-captured???

That would indicate to me that VoPo Lugers would be more valuable as shooters, while pure Russian capture stock Lugers would be more valuable as collectibles...

[Dwight Gruber]

"Police Lugers" has an extensive section on Lugers used by the Deutche Volkspoilizei. It is still available, and should answer all your questions.

--Dwight

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

"Police Lugers" has an extensive section on Lugers used by the Deutche Volkspoilizei. It is still available, and should answer all your questions.

--Dwight

Great! I'm planning on driving down to King Of Prussia and examining Ed's Luger carbine (and taking lots of pics!); I'm sure Ed would let me look at his copy of the book.

Till then, I'll just think up some wildass explanation of VoPo/Russian capture Lugers for the next gun show! Next weekend, as it happens. I doubt there'll be any Lugers there, but Hope Springs Eternal!

[mrerick]

The receiver is dated 1921. The unit marking is Weimar. An artillery regiment. As such, it is one of the last military Lugers made by DWM (before Simson & Co. became the sole supplier under the Versailles Treaty requirements). This Luger's number is high in the reported 1,500 that were shipped to military units by DWM.

Nothing looks like it was used in Police service during the Weimar or Nazi eras. No sear safety or magazine safety.

There is a mark above the Crown/U inspection marks that looks like a VoPo marks on both the frame and the receiver (left sides). I'll get better photos soon to show these.

There is a 1950s Suhl Crown/N on the barrel (which looks new, and was likely replaced and properly staked with a single witness mark); on the front and on the rear toggle.

One of the number matched magazines has a 1 on the base and on the bottom of the spine. It's a 2/1001 DDR manufactured Haenel Schmeisser milled magazine.

The other is an E/37 FXO marked magazine, numbered "2" on the base and numbered to the pistol. Both aluminum magazine bases look ground and renumbered.

There is an unnumbered loading tool also.

As I look closely at it, the dark blued finish looks too even to be a dip. The bluing is even, and the replacement barrel is highly polished. The edges all remain sharp.

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Great! I'm planning on driving down to King Of Prussia and examining Ed's Luger carbine (and taking lots of pics!); I'm sure Ed would let me look at his copy of the book.

I'm sure that Ed would be glad to sell you a copy.

--Dwight