Sarco Imports - Any Prior Discussion?

MACE_Hardware · 01-21-2014, 01:50 AM

Hi, newbie here.

I was wondering if I could get some links to discussions about the Sarco Luger imports. I'm interested in where they came from, people's opinion on them and so forth.

I have two Sarco imports I bought about 20 years ago.

The first is a Mauser from WWII era. It is all matching numbers except the rear toggle pivot pin is mis-matched. Finish coverage is like it's unused but there is pitting under the finish so it must be a reblue. Barrel condition is fair at best with strong rifling but plenty of pitting. It looks like it was rebuilt and never used after rebuild.

The second is supposed to be a WWI era DMW and it is all mismatched SN parts but looks to be an arsenal rebuild. It's finish is used but with pretty good coverage. The barrel is actually a bit better than the Mauser but I think it was replaced. This one looks like it had some use after rebuild.

Both have Nazi stampings as well as the Sarco stamp on the right side. Both have "plastic" grips that are the same.

alanint · 01-21-2014, 04:46 AM

These Lugers are referred to as either VoPo or Russian capture. Both types were captured by the Russians during WW2. Both types went through arsenal rebuilds, where parts where replaced, (many force matched), guns were dip blued as needed and stored. The VoPo guns later went onto service with the East German police, (Volk's Polizie). VoPo guns usually retained their wooden grips. Legend has it that those guns stored by the Russians used a preservative that ruined the wood grips, so plastic grips, either with longitudinal cuts or with shallow checkering and a bull's eye near the center where substituted. Most serial numbers are preceded by an "X" and other marks are frequently "x'd out.

MACE_Hardware · 01-23-2014, 02:51 AM

Yes, both of mine have the grips you describe. My "WWI DMW" is rebuilt just as you describe with many (or most) of the matching numbers XX out. The "WWII Mauser" on the other hand looks to my untrained eye to be pretty much pristine except for the replacement grips and the pitted barrel.

I've chosen the "WWI DMW" as an occasional shooter while leaving the "WWII Mauser" as a safe queen. Would you agree that is a good plan? Most of the rounds through the shooter are by guests who were raised on soulless plastic "Perfection" pistols and get a real charge out of shooting the legend.

alanint · 01-23-2014, 05:10 AM

Shoot both, it will not harm either gun's value.

sheepherder · 01-23-2014, 09:11 AM

There is a growing niche for these pistols among collectors. I think they are quite desirable in that their provenance continued after WW II. Whether they were carried by rear echelon troops or simply stored for future use, they still were considered serviceable if required. Some made their way to other countries (Israel for instance).

They make good shooters, because as noted, most were fitted with new barrels and any worn parts replaced.

There does seem to be two finishes; one is a tar-like coating that is difficult to remove, and the other is a dipped bluing without buffing. Those are the nicest ones IMO...

Sergio Natali · 01-23-2014, 09:29 AM

I think it would be interesting to see some posted photos.

Edward Tinker · 01-23-2014, 09:42 AM

Well, actually those are two different shipments.

VOPO is post war, so it is unlikely the Russians captured them during WW2 - does not mean they did not help the East Germans sell them later.

But Russian guns, with or without the X have certain grips on them and generally stored for 50+ years

Vopo were refurbished for border guards, internal security, etc and were used during the russian occupation - their grips are different looking than the russian grips

Story is that the russian guns were either dipped in a preservative and then stored in oil, thus ruining any wood grips or these grips were swapped out with these plastic grips either before storage or after but before sale

Ed

alanint · 01-23-2014, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Well, actually those are two different shipments.

VOPO is post war, so it is unlikely the Russians captured them during WW2 - does not mean they did not help the East Germans sell them later.

Ed, the Country of East German was formed out of the areas of the former Nazi Germany that were captured and under Soviet control. ALL ordnance within this area would have had to have initially been under Soviet control, by definition. I think it is fair to say that the East German police was supplied out of captured Russian stocks, otherwise, where would these pistols have come from?
I doubt the Russians would have allowed any stray ordnance to sit around in areas they controlled.

Edward Tinker · 01-23-2014, 10:59 AM

researched books say:

Handguns of the Armed organizations of the Soviet Occupation zone and German Democratic Republic, by Dieter H. Marschall

Luger pistols available in the GDR for the most part reworked examples taken from former Wehrmacht (WWII) depots. - etc, sent through repair, etc. .. 10,000 guns were refinished as needed from cannibalized guns, etc....

Page 4 - 5

VOPO guns (Lugers, P38's and PPKs) are separate category from Russian captured guns.

alanint · 01-23-2014, 11:44 AM

We are splitting hairs. All those Wehrmacht depots were under Soviet control. I agree that they are different categories and were sourced differently, but the Soviets oversaw it all.

lugerholsterrepair · 01-23-2014, 01:34 PM

I've chosen the "WWI DMW" as an occasional shooter while leaving the "WWII Mauser" as a safe queen. Would you agree that is a good plan?

Not really. DWM pistols are more delicate and prone to breakage. Mauser strengthened some parts like the extractor hook to prevent malfunctions. The changes Mauser made were for a reason..They had a list of common breaks/malfunctions and went about fixing them.

If I had the choice you have..I would shoot the Mauser and leave the DWM in the safe.

Zorba · 01-23-2014, 04:57 PM

MACE_Hardware · 01-24-2014, 12:19 AM

I must say it is refreshing to have so many comments telling me to go shooting. On the M1911 board I frequent, shooting the old iron is tantamount to a sin. In fairness, there is a whole world of modern manufacture 1911s to shoot if you need to scratch that itch while the modern P08 is (apparently) non-existent.

DavidJayUden · 01-24-2014, 07:42 AM

It's not always that way around here...
dju

mrerick · 01-24-2014, 09:33 AM

MACE, we draw a distinction between collectable Lugers and those that that have less collector interest.

Collectable Lugers are valued much higher than ones that have value as a shootable firearm. Those values include both historic, and financial aspects.

I have a couple of Lugers that I use for shooting. They are mechanically excellent and have great bores. One is mismatched (receiver and cannon from one gun, and frame from another), the other is all matching, but with a pitted finish. If something breaks on either of these, it won't be a great loss, and all I have to do is repair the damage.

In an all matching high original finish unmodified Luger (basically like it left the factory), breaking a numbered part drops the financial value 40% and the historic value 100%.

Marc

MACE_Hardware · 01-25-2014, 03:34 AM

Yes, that makes sense.

I'm at a point in life where I don't really care about monetary value (that's something my heirs can worry about), but I do care about history and leaving a legacy for others to enjoy.

Much respect to the conservators of high grade pistols, but that's not how I enjoy my hobby.

To make a muscle car analogy, I'm the sort who would rather have a COPO clone and race it than to have a irreplaceable original and be afraid to let it see sunlight. My imperfect arsenal rebuilds will provide me and many guests a great deal of fun and historical insight.

You lugerforum members have already elevated my understanding of the history, and I thank you.

01-21-2014, 01:50 AM	#1
MACE_Hardware User Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 6 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sarco Imports - Any Prior Discussion? Hi, newbie here. I was wondering if I could get some links to discussions about the Sarco Luger imports. I'm interested in where they came from, people's opinion on them and so forth. I have two Sarco imports I bought about 20 years ago. The first is a Mauser from WWII era. It is all matching numbers except the rear toggle pivot pin is mis-matched. Finish coverage is like it's unused but there is pitting under the finish so it must be a reblue. Barrel condition is fair at best with strong rifling but plenty of pitting. It looks like it was rebuilt and never used after rebuild. The second is supposed to be a WWI era DMW and it is all mismatched SN parts but looks to be an arsenal rebuild. It's finish is used but with pretty good coverage. The barrel is actually a bit better than the Mauser but I think it was replaced. This one looks like it had some use after rebuild. Both have Nazi stampings as well as the Sarco stamp on the right side. Both have "plastic" grips that are the same.

01-23-2014, 09:11 AM	#5
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	There is a growing niche for these pistols among collectors. I think they are quite desirable in that their provenance continued after WW II. Whether they were carried by rear echelon troops or simply stored for future use, they still were considered serviceable if required. Some made their way to other countries (Israel for instance). They make good shooters, because as noted, most were fitted with new barrels and any worn parts replaced. There does seem to be two finishes; one is a tar-like coating that is difficult to remove, and the other is a dipped bluing without buffing. Those are the nicest ones IMO... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-23-2014, 09:29 AM	#6
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I think it would be interesting to see some posted photos. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

01-23-2014, 09:42 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Well, actually those are two different shipments. VOPO is post war, so it is unlikely the Russians captured them during WW2 - does not mean they did not help the East Germans sell them later. But Russian guns, with or without the X have certain grips on them and generally stored for 50+ years Vopo were refurbished for border guards, internal security, etc and were used during the russian occupation - their grips are different looking than the russian grips Story is that the russian guns were either dipped in a preservative and then stored in oil, thus ruining any wood grips or these grips were swapped out with these plastic grips either before storage or after but before sale Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-23-2014, 01:34 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	I've chosen the "WWI DMW" as an occasional shooter while leaving the "WWII Mauser" as a safe queen. Would you agree that is a good plan? Not really. DWM pistols are more delicate and prone to breakage. Mauser strengthened some parts like the extractor hook to prevent malfunctions. The changes Mauser made were for a reason..They had a list of common breaks/malfunctions and went about fixing them. If I had the choice you have..I would shoot the Mauser and leave the DWM in the safe. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-21-2014, 04:46 AM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	These Lugers are referred to as either VoPo or Russian capture. Both types were captured by the Russians during WW2. Both types went through arsenal rebuilds, where parts where replaced, (many force matched), guns were dip blued as needed and stored. The VoPo guns later went onto service with the East German police, (Volk's Polizie). VoPo guns usually retained their wooden grips. Legend has it that those guns stored by the Russians used a preservative that ruined the wood grips, so plastic grips, either with longitudinal cuts or with shallow checkering and a bull's eye near the center where substituted. Most serial numbers are preceded by an "X" and other marks are frequently "x'd out.

01-23-2014, 02:51 AM	#3
MACE_Hardware User Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 6 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, both of mine have the grips you describe. My "WWI DMW" is rebuilt just as you describe with many (or most) of the matching numbers XX out. The "WWII Mauser" on the other hand looks to my untrained eye to be pretty much pristine except for the replacement grips and the pitted barrel. I've chosen the "WWI DMW" as an occasional shooter while leaving the "WWII Mauser" as a safe queen. Would you agree that is a good plan? Most of the rounds through the shooter are by guests who were raised on soulless plastic "Perfection" pistols and get a real charge out of shooting the legend.

01-23-2014, 05:10 AM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Shoot both, it will not harm either gun's value.

01-23-2014, 10:59 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	researched books say: Handguns of the Armed organizations of the Soviet Occupation zone and German Democratic Republic, by Dieter H. Marschall Luger pistols available in the GDR for the most part reworked examples taken from former Wehrmacht (WWII) depots. - etc, sent through repair, etc. .. 10,000 guns were refinished as needed from cannibalized guns, etc.... Page 4 - 5 VOPO guns (Lugers, P38's and PPKs) are separate category from Russian captured guns.

01-23-2014, 11:44 AM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	We are splitting hairs. All those Wehrmacht depots were under Soviet control. I agree that they are different categories and were sourced differently, but the Soviets oversaw it all.

01-23-2014, 04:57 PM	#12
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 528 Times in 290 Posts

01-24-2014, 12:19 AM	#13
MACE_Hardware User Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 6 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I must say it is refreshing to have so many comments telling me to go shooting. On the M1911 board I frequent, shooting the old iron is tantamount to a sin. In fairness, there is a whole world of modern manufacture 1911s to shoot if you need to scratch that itch while the modern P08 is (apparently) non-existent.

01-24-2014, 07:42 AM	#14
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It's not always that way around here... dju

01-24-2014, 09:33 AM	#15
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	MACE, we draw a distinction between collectable Lugers and those that that have less collector interest. Collectable Lugers are valued much higher than ones that have value as a shootable firearm. Those values include both historic, and financial aspects. I have a couple of Lugers that I use for shooting. They are mechanically excellent and have great bores. One is mismatched (receiver and cannon from one gun, and frame from another), the other is all matching, but with a pitted finish. If something breaks on either of these, it won't be a great loss, and all I have to do is repair the damage. In an all matching high original finish unmodified Luger (basically like it left the factory), breaking a numbered part drops the financial value 40% and the historic value 100%. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-25-2014, 03:34 AM	#16
MACE_Hardware User Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 6 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, that makes sense. I'm at a point in life where I don't really care about monetary value (that's something my heirs can worry about), but I do care about history and leaving a legacy for others to enjoy. Much respect to the conservators of high grade pistols, but that's not how I enjoy my hobby. To make a muscle car analogy, I'm the sort who would rather have a COPO clone and race it than to have a irreplaceable original and be afraid to let it see sunlight. My imperfect arsenal rebuilds will provide me and many guests a great deal of fun and historical insight. You lugerforum members have already elevated my understanding of the history, and I thank you.