4130 & 4140

G.T. · 01-08-2014, 05:56 PM

Hi to all, just a general steel question that some of our more experienced gunsmiths might be able to answer?? How does 4130 & 4140 take salt blue?? I think just about any part on a luger, with the exception of the trigger lever, and maybe hold-open could be made from those two steels? Wha'd'ya think guys..

.. best to all, til..lat'r...GT...

Green57 · 01-09-2014, 06:47 AM

G.T.

I would say stick with the 4140. This is the alloy that most modern fire arms are made from. It will machine easier without undue wear to cutting tools. The added carbon will allow it to be hardened effectively for the parts that require heat treat. It should take a salt blue finish without a problem as long as it is clean, and your bluing salts are at the proper temp.

sheepherder · 01-09-2014, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

I think just about any part on a luger, with the exception of the trigger lever, and maybe hold-open could be made from those two steels...

Gerry -

I can't answer your bluing question, but your above comment makes me curious...Why would you think those two parts couldn't be 4140??? Is there a written specification for a higher grade steel???

G.T. · 01-09-2014, 02:14 PM

Hi Rich, I was assuming that the parts mentioned (add ejector)were probably made up of a, "best available" spring steel, maybe 50% or better in carbon at the time. And, as I really don't know what was available at the turn of the century, it is an assumption on my part.. Now the Nazi era pistols might be a whole nother deal?? As advanced metallurgy was on the fast track by then.. In working more and more on complete lugers and getting up close and personal with so many associated parts, I'm constantly amazed at how soft and bendable most parts are??... Example, bent takedown levers, bent or deformed sideplates, sprung receivers, etc... Pretty interesting stuff... As far as specifications go, If we could find any, I would be willing to bet it would spec the cheapest steel possible to fulfill the job it was designed for...Materials cost is the first place the accountants would check... I'm betting the majority of the Luger parts are just plain 1010 or 1018 low carbon steel...

.. best to all, til...lat'r....GT

sheepherder · 01-09-2014, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

I'm betting the majority of the Luger parts are just plain 1010 or 1018 low carbon steel...

...

...No way! I would bet 4140 minimum! If you're talking about flat springs, then 1095 probably...A steel that will harden but still retain flexibility. I have worked with a high-end 8000 series steel and it is a beeitch to work with! Not only hard at the git-go, but will work harden as you machine it!

4140 is known as 'ordnance steel'. I was wondering if you were thinking that parts with a high wear rate would be harder steel, and I couldn't think of why a hold-open or a trigger bar would be any higher than say a toggle...

G.T. · 01-09-2014, 04:42 PM

Hi Rich, Thanks for the input! I don't think steels like we have now were readily available in 1900 thru WW1??... Trigger bars, hold opens, trigger levers, firing pins, ejectors and the like show some heat treat...toggles, and breech block some heat treat as well.. and I realize 1018 isn't a candidate for those applications.. but 1050 certainly would be.. And, if they had 1095, I would think, it'd just be by accident, as the processes for tempering & drawing that material wasn't known back then... I'd say 1075 max... and I'll stick to my guns on the 1018 until some one can prove different??? ... I can remember Winchester with chrome-moly steel in the barrels back in the 30's and such, and they didn't hold blue worth a crap?? ... If Sam Bucemi is still checking out the forum, I'd certainly like his opinion... Maybe our European guys will know??...

... best to all, til...lat'r....GT...

sheepherder · 01-09-2014, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

I don't think steels like we have now were readily available in 1900 thru WW1...and I'll stick to my guns on the 1018 until some one can prove different...

Gerry, the Germans built battleships & submarines from 1900 until WW I !!! Of course they had premium steel!!! Krupp steel!!!

Here's a test...Go down to the local hardware store and get some grade 5 bolts (they have three hash marks on the head)...Heat them up and try to 'straw' them...Next, heat them to cherry red and quench them in oil...See if you can still cut them with a hacksaw...

Coat hangers are 1010/1020 steel...

G.T. · 01-09-2014, 08:06 PM

Hi Rich, I'm pretty knowledgeable on grade 5 & grade 8 bolts and their limits and capabilities.. BUT, they are modern carbon steels.. The Titanic sank in 1912 from inferior steel used for the rivets and plates.. They didn't scrimp.. they just didn't have or use better.. My theory, is based on how mallatible original Luger parts are... There is no reason to use steels better then common 10 series steels?? UNLESS! it was something that was easier on tooling, or, easier to finish?? ... You still have to convince me the steel used originally, is something better??.. But, I appreciate your views.. It will be an interesting quest to find the actual steel quality..

.. Where are my European buddies when I need them..!!

... BTW, I agree, Krupp steel was to manufacturing war materials.. as Zeiss was to expensive glass... The Germans held all the cards for half a century... Just too small to make it pan out... Best to you, til..lat'r...GT

sheepherder · 01-09-2014, 08:15 PM

They had artillery!!! In 1898, they had K98 Mauser rifles!!! I know for a fact they had helmets that HSS bits couldn't drill through!!! They had right hand twist progressive wound steel springs!!!

Vlim · 01-09-2014, 09:08 PM

Paul Mauser found that the german steels of the time (early 1900s) were of an inferior consistancy. So he ordered his steel in Sheffield

There are several lists of steel types used by the Germans, Swiss and post war Mauser company, also an interesting discussion between the German army and Mauser about simplifying production and using lower quality steel during WW2. Basically, Mauser (August Weiss) told them to p*ss off

I've attached a document with an overview of Swiss, Wartime Mauser and postwar Mauser material types used in production.

G.T. · 01-09-2014, 10:08 PM

Gerben, you are a star!! Thank you for the info... Now we need someone who is steel savvy to convert to US steel??.. But, Thanks again my friend! best to you, til...lat'r....GT...

G.T. · 01-10-2014, 10:40 AM

Looks like many of the major components are the equiv. of SAE 5115 steel?? I've never heard of it, much less used it?? But, it would seem to be an alloy steel with some hardening capability... How it compares to 4130 or 4140 is still not known to me.. Better, worse, interchangeable, I don't know?? Some parts like the frame and trigger are of low carbon grade steel which would be expected... All the info is readily available on the net... But, the list is just what I needed Thanks again Gerben!!!...

... best to all, til...lat'r....GT

01-08-2014, 05:56 PM	#1
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,527 Thanks: 1,323 Thanked 3,710 Times in 1,014 Posts	4130 & 4140 Hi to all, just a general steel question that some of our more experienced gunsmiths might be able to answer?? How does 4130 & 4140 take salt blue?? I think just about any part on a luger, with the exception of the trigger lever, and maybe hold-open could be made from those two steels? Wha'd'ya think guys.. .. best to all, til..lat'r...GT...

01-09-2014, 06:47 AM	#2
Green57 User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	G.T. I would say stick with the 4140. This is the alloy that most modern fire arms are made from. It will machine easier without undue wear to cutting tools. The added carbon will allow it to be hardened effectively for the parts that require heat treat. It should take a salt blue finish without a problem as long as it is clean, and your bluing salts are at the proper temp. Last edited by Green57; 01-09-2014 at 07:02 PM.

01-09-2014, 02:14 PM	#4
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,527 Thanks: 1,323 Thanked 3,710 Times in 1,014 Posts	hard parts... Hi Rich, I was assuming that the parts mentioned (add ejector)were probably made up of a, "best available" spring steel, maybe 50% or better in carbon at the time. And, as I really don't know what was available at the turn of the century, it is an assumption on my part.. Now the Nazi era pistols might be a whole nother deal?? As advanced metallurgy was on the fast track by then.. In working more and more on complete lugers and getting up close and personal with so many associated parts, I'm constantly amazed at how soft and bendable most parts are??... Example, bent takedown levers, bent or deformed sideplates, sprung receivers, etc... Pretty interesting stuff... As far as specifications go, If we could find any, I would be willing to bet it would spec the cheapest steel possible to fulfill the job it was designed for...Materials cost is the first place the accountants would check... I'm betting the majority of the Luger parts are just plain 1010 or 1018 low carbon steel... .. best to all, til...lat'r....GT

01-09-2014, 04:42 PM	#6
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,527 Thanks: 1,323 Thanked 3,710 Times in 1,014 Posts	modern vs old... Hi Rich, Thanks for the input! I don't think steels like we have now were readily available in 1900 thru WW1??... Trigger bars, hold opens, trigger levers, firing pins, ejectors and the like show some heat treat...toggles, and breech block some heat treat as well.. and I realize 1018 isn't a candidate for those applications.. but 1050 certainly would be.. And, if they had 1095, I would think, it'd just be by accident, as the processes for tempering & drawing that material wasn't known back then... I'd say 1075 max... and I'll stick to my guns on the 1018 until some one can prove different??? ... I can remember Winchester with chrome-moly steel in the barrels back in the 30's and such, and they didn't hold blue worth a crap?? ... If Sam Bucemi is still checking out the forum, I'd certainly like his opinion... Maybe our European guys will know??... ... best to all, til...lat'r....GT... Last edited by G.T.; 01-09-2014 at 07:05 PM.

01-09-2014, 08:06 PM	#8
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,527 Thanks: 1,323 Thanked 3,710 Times in 1,014 Posts	steel.. Hi Rich, I'm pretty knowledgeable on grade 5 & grade 8 bolts and their limits and capabilities.. BUT, they are modern carbon steels.. The Titanic sank in 1912 from inferior steel used for the rivets and plates.. They didn't scrimp.. they just didn't have or use better.. My theory, is based on how mallatible original Luger parts are... There is no reason to use steels better then common 10 series steels?? UNLESS! it was something that was easier on tooling, or, easier to finish?? ... You still have to convince me the steel used originally, is something better??.. But, I appreciate your views.. It will be an interesting quest to find the actual steel quality.. .. Where are my European buddies when I need them..!!... BTW, I agree, Krupp steel was to manufacturing war materials.. as Zeiss was to expensive glass... The Germans held all the cards for half a century... Just too small to make it pan out... Best to you, til..lat'r...GT

01-09-2014, 08:15 PM	#9
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,196 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	They had artillery!!! In 1898, they had K98 Mauser rifles!!! I know for a fact they had helmets that HSS bits couldn't drill through!!! They had right hand twist progressive wound steel springs!!! __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-09-2014, 10:08 PM	#11
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,527 Thanks: 1,323 Thanked 3,710 Times in 1,014 Posts	thank you! Gerben, you are a star!! Thank you for the info... Now we need someone who is steel savvy to convert to US steel??.. But, Thanks again my friend! best to you, til...lat'r....GT...

01-10-2014, 10:40 AM	#12
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,527 Thanks: 1,323 Thanked 3,710 Times in 1,014 Posts	looked'em up! Looks like many of the major components are the equiv. of SAE 5115 steel?? I've never heard of it, much less used it?? But, it would seem to be an alloy steel with some hardening capability... How it compares to 4130 or 4140 is still not known to me.. Better, worse, interchangeable, I don't know?? Some parts like the frame and trigger are of low carbon grade steel which would be expected... All the info is readily available on the net... But, the list is just what I needed Thanks again Gerben!!!...... best to all, til...lat'r....GT