Firearms shipment - avoid UPS

[mrerick]

A member over at the P.38 forum posted today that a firearm that was being shipped to his FFL for him was "Lost" by UPS.

He apparently knows someone with ATF that indicated these "Lost" / "Stolen" incidents are reasonably common with UPS, and to avoid shipping using them...

Here's the post:

http://p38forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29692

I really wish we could get USPS shipping approved for C&R FFL holders...

Marc

[Edward Tinker]

Marc, I agree with you - although I sincerely believe that it depends on where you live on whether you love, UPS, USPS or Fedex...

[wlyon]

Unless it was shipped overnight mail UPS will not make good on it. At least That's what our local office told me. All handguns must be shipped overnight mail. Bill

[alanint]

Just ask the old Interarms. A Virginia UPS driver was eventually charged with stealing over 850 firearms, (mostly handguns), from this known importer.

[mrerick]

The sad thing is that USPS is absolutely reliable here.

I've had FedEx Overnight leave a handgun at my neighbor's house (a nice Swiss Luger). Luckily, I was watching the tracking. It showed "Delivered" and nobody had stopped by my house. I eventually combed the neighborhood and found it on their doorstep.

I know that the CMP uses FedEx exclusively.

Marc

[John Sabato]

We have at least 2 retired USPS employees that I know of that are active members of the Lugerforum (& you know who you are ). To them I pose this "theoretical" shipping question and ask them to opine on this shipping strategy--so please give me your legal opinion even though you are not a firearms lawyer and don't play one on TV. Are these assumptions valid?:

1. I believe that if you ship a "firearm" via USPS you must declare that fact at the mail origination point.
2. The declared firearm package must be shipped overnight
3. I ASSUME that the postal regulations do not define what constitutes a "firearm".
4. So if #3 is true, whose definition does USPS use? Or do we further assume the intent of the regulation applies to a "complete" firearm?
5. Does a stripped, serial numbered, pistol frame, or rifle receiver, constitute a "firearm" in the eyes of the USPS? If so, what published USPS document so states that?
6. If HALF of a pistol is shipped in one package and the other HALF is sent to the same address in a separate package, have we, as a C&R license holder complied with the law AND the USPS regulations?

I believe that this situation is a legal gray area and I am not sure that I would want it "officially" defined. But the experience and opinion of our former USPS members could prove enlightening.

What I know for sure is that in my own experience, priority mail with delivery confirmation has never failed to arrive at the intended destination. And they have never been molested in route.

Ladies & Gentlemen... I open the floor for your educated guesses and expert discussion!

Thanks in advance for your contributions to the collective knowledge of the forum.

[CJS57]

If you ship UPS, Put the gun is a big box! That cannot be hidden under a shirt! That makes it difficult for the employee's to steal it which is how most UPS losses occur. Shipping USPS is FFL dealer to FFL dealer only on handguns. It can go plain old priority mail with signature required, which is safe and very cost effective.

[mrerick]

I believe that the serialized part of the firearm is considered a firearm all by itself legally.

Marc

[lew1]

Originally Posted by mrerick

I believe that the serialized part of the firearm is considered a firearm all by itself legally.

Marc

On many Hi Powers, the frame, the slide and the barrel has the full serial number.

[John Sabato]

Folks I appreciate your comments but please back up your beliefs on this subject with a published reference for WHY you believe what you state. Remember that my theory is that the USPS does not define a "firearm" in its regulations but appears to interpret that term as a complete gun...

As part of the gun owning "fraternity" you and I would define a complete firearm as the collection of individual components necessary to fire a loaded cartridge. If any of those components is missing then it is no longer a "gun."

-John S.

[mrerick]

The USPS definition of a firearm, handgun, etc is here:

http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_008.htm

431.1 Firearm

A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.


- - -



One could make the argument that a frame, receiver or other gun part is a device that could "be readily converted...".


But it's further defined in:



http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm


432 Mailability

432.1 General

The following conditions apply:

1. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as “handguns”) are nonmailable in the domestic mail, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1.
2. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1 or 601.11.2.
3. Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted, as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.2.
4. Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90—618) and
   18 U.S.C. 921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from mailing because of the restrictions in 432.1b and c.

The DMM is at:



http://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/manuals/dmm300/601.pdf


Firearms are actually discussed in section 12, rather than 11.



It now clearly states this:



12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are
nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the
filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to
the following:
a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition
of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic
collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique
firearm under 12.1.1h.
b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b which are certified
by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms
to be curios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without
regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6.
c. Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearm under 12.1.1a that are
capable of being concealed on a person are mailable; but must include adult
signature service under 503.8.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state
and local regulations.
d. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other
parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
e. Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state,
territory, or district.

[mrerick]

Re-reading all this has me thinking...

The USPS is a quasi-private agency associated with the government. (Corrected by Ron below...) So is the CMP and I believe Boy Scouts.

USPS is quite sensitive to discrimination issues, especially after a history of individual employee actions nationwide. A friend that retired from postal service said you could cut the political correctness with a knife where he worked.

The ATF regulations establish a class of individuals, "Curio and Relic Collectors" that is well defined:

- Pass a background check
- Pay a regular licensing fee
- Have a permanent address listed on the license

These characteristics are the same as other classes of FFL holders.

The basic difference between Curio and Relic firearms and Antique firearms is their age. They all function in the same way. There is no other difference.

The DMM regulations are pure discrimination against a class of individuals without any functional justification. The same as if you were black and I were white and the USPS serviced our customer requirements in different ways.

This could be an interesting lawsuit....

Marc

[John Sabato]

I am pleased to have stirred this discussion. I also believe that this statement "Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted, as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.2." Can be the legal justification (authority) for the "mail-ability" of C&R handguns between licensees. Whether it was intended to be by USPS or not.

We now need to see the the context and contents of the named references. Unfortunately I only have web and forum access from my phone for the next several days so if someone else (Marc ?) can look those sections up and post the contents it would be very enlightening for us all.

[mrerick]

The references have hot links on my post... Just click on them to get to the definition pages and PDF document for the DMM section.

The DMM is a new publication, with the filed dated 10/29/2013. It defines the prohibition against C&R licensee shipment of handguns more specifically than I've ever seen before.

Again, the DMM link is at:

http://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/manuals/dmm300/601.pdf

Marc

[mrerick]

They do specifically define an antique. It has to be made prior to 1899 and doesn't use modern ammunition:

431.3 Antique Firearm

An antique firearm (including one with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898, or a replica of such a firearm, that meets either of the following conditions:

1. It is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
2. It uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available through commercial trade channels.

And 12.1.1.h:

h.
Antique firearm
means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is
designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot
use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver,
any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle
loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by
replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock,
or any combination thereof); or any
firearm (including those with a matchlock,
flintlock, percussion cap, or similar
type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof,
if such replica:
1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire
fixed ammunition.
2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer
manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the
ordinary channels of commercial trade.

[Ron Smith]

"The USPS is a quasi-private agency associated with the government."

Not exactly, USPS is a Government Corporation, owned and operated by the U.S. Government.

[George Anderson]

UPS is notorious for bad deliveries. Today I was supposed to receive a Luger shipped by a dealer through UPS. Either my wife or I were at home all day so as not to miss it. At about 1700 the UPS truck drove slowly by the house while my wife stood out side watching it. I called the UPS center here and asked about the package. I was told that it was delivered and signed for. I told the nice lady "The hell it was". They contacted the driver who went back to wherever he delivered it, retrieved it and came to my neighbor's house where he tried to deliver it. I walked over to his truck and told him he had the wrong damn house. He handed me the box and I told him I needed to sign for it. His response was that that had already been taken care of.

UPS is a union staffed company and their delivery competence is pathetic at best. I once had a 1906 Navy full rig tied up in their distribution system for over two weeks because I couldn't pick the package up as their employees were on strike!

You want secure shipping? Use FedEx.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

...He handed me the box and I told him I needed to sign for it. His response was that that had already been taken care of.

George, that's hilarious!!! (Pathetic but funny!)

"Oh, no, sir - You don't have to sign for it. The guy two streets over already took care of that!"

On an unrelated note, I went to four well-known sites today looking for smokeless powder...One of the sites had a note saying that UPS now charges $20 extra for shipping powder...Over & above the shipping charges...

The amounts didn't matter, but it would be $20 extra for each package containing powder...Big package or small...

A hazardous substance fee???

[MikeP]

Looking for loopholes in things like postal regulations is tilting at windmills.

Other than actually breaking a law or violating a statute, you will not be able to recomp a loss.

I bought a nice piece a while back through this sites for sale section.

Found it on my porch, shipped USPS by a ffl.
As I recall, it was not even insured.
PC is not the issue with USPS, their regulations are federal laws.
Overnight FEDEX remains the best for traffic between two C&R.

[rhuff]

The hazmat fee on powder and primers has been around for a long time with UPS and Fedex. You can't ship either via USPS. This extra fee(usually $25-$27.00 above shipping charges) will cover up to 48 lbs. of powder and/or primers. If above 48 lbs., you pay another hazmat fee.

Because of this fee, many/most of us that order our reloading components from places like Powder Valley, we usually place a large order, and the savings, and no sales tax(yet) covers the hazmat fee.