Help with Luger Value! Should I Buy?

Jack Lawman · 04-26-2013, 09:21 AM

Here are two opinions on the use of the term "Black Widow" in luger collecting. Mostly sums it up. Reprinted from: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=338275

Posted by: phild
1. I don't know who actually coined the name (Black Widow) and neither does anyone else! Shattuck was using it by the late 60s and he may have claimed to have invented it like Al Gore, but he may have heard it from a GI as well....I wish we would stop the myth of the name being only a Shattuck marketing term.

2. Common?? They are not that common, about the same number made and fitted with these grips as there were G dates made!!! According to Still.

3. Ugly? Hardly. I think that they look "bad to THE bone". A minty one well displayed will block an aisle at a gun show everytime. If you do not have one of these instead of running it down, I would suggest that you get the nicest one that you can find. I bet that it will grow on you.

4. Late war, crude finish...blah, blah, blah...well you need to really carefuly look at one. There is nothing crude about them...as for late war....the Germans were still winning in 1942.

5. Cheap black plastic grips... well they are not cheap and they are not even made out of plastic....the resin mixture still is not or maybe even can not be reproduced cost effectivly today.

6. Nothing to do with the SS....blah blah blah....Well, since the 1970s I have run down to my satisfaction a good number of these BW Lugers that were in fact taken from SS officers and soldiers. I am not saying that every byf Luger (black gripped or not) went to the SS, but I am satisfied that a very high % of them did.

The nick name may have never been used by the Germans...but perhaps they had similar name in German for the black gripped Luger...The German militaria collecting field so full of mis used terms and the insistance of myths that have become hard collector facts, the use of the phrase Black Widow doesn't amount to a hill of beans when stacked up to rest of the mis-conceptions. Perhaps two wrongs don't make a right, but a nice condition byf black gripped Luger makes one sharp and sinister looking pistol.....let's let her live in dignity.

___________________________________________

Posted by: Matt Weber
I personally don't care either way. What really bothers me about the name (Black Widow), is that people think that these are "special" in some way. They are nothing more than "byf41" and "byf42" lugers with black grips! You could put the black grips on a 1940 luger as well, and it would look the same!

I would like to comment on philds' remarks though. Just for fun;

1. You say no one knows who coined the phrase, but if Ralph Shadduck claims he did, and was using it for marketing purposes, then isn't he then responsible for it?

2. True the black grips are not as common as the wooden ones. However, just think of how many 41-42 dated lugers came with wooden grips and now have the black ones "added" by some collector! I personally think that the wooden grips (on the 41-42 dates I'm talking about only!!) are much harder to find these days then the black ones! I mean seriously, every time I see a 'byf42" these days, it has black grips on it! Don't even get me started on the magazines! We all know how easy it is to swap mags, or even swap the bases!

3. Ugly? I think whoever stated this was comparing them to the wooden grips. On thier own, the black grips do look good. However, if you put them next to a nice minty pair of wooden ones, there is no comparison.

4. Late war? I don't recall anyone saying these were "late war?" I don't consider 1941-42 late war. 41-43 would be mid war in my opinion. Anyways, as for the finish, compared to early (pre-war) lugers, the finish again is no comparison.

5. Cheap? I honestly don't know how much these cost in 1942 compared to the wooden ones? I'm guessing that they were in fact cheaper, otherwise why would they have used them in place of wood ones? Also, just look at all the other firearms that used bakelite parts instead of wood.

6. Finally the SS subject. I was waiting for this one! You say you have gotten many black griped lugers that were taken from SS officers and soldiers? That's funny, because ALL of my lugers were taken from SS officers too! I'll say it again, "buy the item, not the story".
Ok, seriously now, yes, the SS did have lugers. And yes, I'm sure it possible that the SS did get some of the lugers issed with the black grips. However, there is certainly no evidence that these black grip lugers were somehow "tied" to the SS, or issued exclusively to the SS. I guess the black gripped P38s were issued to the SS as well? And also the black gripped PPks? Black gripped Radoms? Ok, I'll stop now, I could go on, but I think you get the point?

Instead of getting rid of the term "black widow", how about we stop using the term "SS" to describe anything "black?"

Also, the question on this thread was do you like the term "black widow?" Not, "do you like the black grips?"
I like the black grips, and I think most collectors would agree. It adds another variation to the huge amount of luger variations already! I just don't like it when people try to represent them as something they are not.

What Jason was really wondering, was if collectors still like to use the term "black widow" to describe these lugers, or if we could come up with a newer, perhaps better term. As I stated above, I don't care either way. If someone comes up with a better name fine. Otherwise, I'll just call them "byf41" or "byf42" with black grips.

Zorba · 04-26-2013, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Lawman

What Jason was really wondering, was if collectors still like to use the term "black widow" to describe these lugers, or if we could come up with a newer, perhaps better term. As I stated above, I don't care either way. If someone comes up with a better name fine. Otherwise, I'll just call them "byf41" or "byf42" with black grips.

This is a two edged sword. As a total NOOB, I do like the term - but I know (just) enough to understand why it would annoy long timers.

But trying to replace a term that has (apparently) become this widespread can be very problematic. As a few of you know, I am a Belly Dancer. There are those in the Belly Dance world who really detest that term, and push for something else. It isn't working. The general public knows it as "Belly Dance" and I don't see that changing anytime soon. A similar situation exists with the term "Cabaret", in reference to the "Cabaret Style" of Belly Dance. "Cabaret" means "strip club" in most of the world; but not in America, where the term originates. So almost everyone calls "American Cabaret Belly Dance" - you guessed it: "American Cabaret Belly Dance" much to the annoyance of the ones who would change it.

Come full circle to "Black Widow". It may not be authentic, but everyone involved knows what it means - like it or not - and the term most likely won't go away. That being the case, just like "Belly Dance" or "Cabaret" - its a pointless use of energy to try to change it at this point in time, might as well embrace it.

Dems me thoughts - I have a nice picture of a "Black Widow" as computer wallpaper that I'm looking at as I write this. The only difference I can see between it and a non- is that it has black grips!

Jack Lawman · 04-26-2013, 01:28 PM

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" could easily be replaced by "A black gripped luger by any other name would look as badass". I guess it all comes down to just how anal retentive one happens to be. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_retentiveness

Personally, I don't care either way. I'll call it whatever you'd like. I'll go out on a limb and say that many who dislike the term "Black Widow" have no problem referring to the "United States Rifle, Caliber .30, M1" as a "Garand". It's not quite the same, but it's not much different.

Jack

By the way, nice luger!

Edward Tinker · 04-26-2013, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Lawman

Here are two opinions on the use of the term "Black Widow" in luger collecting. Mostly sums it up. Reprinted from:

OF COURSE YOU COULD JUST READ THE FAQ HERE ABOUT THEM ALSO

I think you guys are a bunch of cheap #$%'s and IMO think $1500 for a clean byf rig is pretty good, with a few hundred more if a retailer (2k)

The reason we object to the term Black Widow is that it has no basis in fact. Many folks believe that the finish was darker, or that they were issued to SS or Luftwaffe, etc. When, as said above, they were using black grips as substitute grips instead of wood.

SteveM · 04-26-2013, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I think you guys are a bunch of cheap #$%'s and IMO think $1500 for a clean byf rig is pretty good, with a few hundred more if a retailer (2k)

Ed, I am a cheap #$%'s; that is the only way I can afford to keep up with my hobby.

04-26-2013, 09:21 AM	#1
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	Black Widows Here are two opinions on the use of the term "Black Widow" in luger collecting. Mostly sums it up. Reprinted from: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=338275 Posted by: phild 1. I don't know who actually coined the name (Black Widow) and neither does anyone else! Shattuck was using it by the late 60s and he may have claimed to have invented it like Al Gore, but he may have heard it from a GI as well....I wish we would stop the myth of the name being only a Shattuck marketing term. 2. Common?? They are not that common, about the same number made and fitted with these grips as there were G dates made!!! According to Still. 3. Ugly? Hardly. I think that they look "bad to THE bone". A minty one well displayed will block an aisle at a gun show everytime. If you do not have one of these instead of running it down, I would suggest that you get the nicest one that you can find. I bet that it will grow on you. 4. Late war, crude finish...blah, blah, blah...well you need to really carefuly look at one. There is nothing crude about them...as for late war....the Germans were still winning in 1942. 5. Cheap black plastic grips... well they are not cheap and they are not even made out of plastic....the resin mixture still is not or maybe even can not be reproduced cost effectivly today. 6. Nothing to do with the SS....blah blah blah....Well, since the 1970s I have run down to my satisfaction a good number of these BW Lugers that were in fact taken from SS officers and soldiers. I am not saying that every byf Luger (black gripped or not) went to the SS, but I am satisfied that a very high % of them did. The nick name may have never been used by the Germans...but perhaps they had similar name in German for the black gripped Luger...The German militaria collecting field so full of mis used terms and the insistance of myths that have become hard collector facts, the use of the phrase Black Widow doesn't amount to a hill of beans when stacked up to rest of the mis-conceptions. Perhaps two wrongs don't make a right, but a nice condition byf black gripped Luger makes one sharp and sinister looking pistol.....let's let her live in dignity. ___________________________________________ Posted by: Matt Weber I personally don't care either way. What really bothers me about the name (Black Widow), is that people think that these are "special" in some way. They are nothing more than "byf41" and "byf42" lugers with black grips! You could put the black grips on a 1940 luger as well, and it would look the same! I would like to comment on philds' remarks though. Just for fun; 1. You say no one knows who coined the phrase, but if Ralph Shadduck claims he did, and was using it for marketing purposes, then isn't he then responsible for it? 2. True the black grips are not as common as the wooden ones. However, just think of how many 41-42 dated lugers came with wooden grips and now have the black ones "added" by some collector! I personally think that the wooden grips (on the 41-42 dates I'm talking about only!!) are much harder to find these days then the black ones! I mean seriously, every time I see a 'byf42" these days, it has black grips on it! Don't even get me started on the magazines! We all know how easy it is to swap mags, or even swap the bases! 3. Ugly? I think whoever stated this was comparing them to the wooden grips. On thier own, the black grips do look good. However, if you put them next to a nice minty pair of wooden ones, there is no comparison. 4. Late war? I don't recall anyone saying these were "late war?" I don't consider 1941-42 late war. 41-43 would be mid war in my opinion. Anyways, as for the finish, compared to early (pre-war) lugers, the finish again is no comparison. 5. Cheap? I honestly don't know how much these cost in 1942 compared to the wooden ones? I'm guessing that they were in fact cheaper, otherwise why would they have used them in place of wood ones? Also, just look at all the other firearms that used bakelite parts instead of wood. 6. Finally the SS subject. I was waiting for this one! You say you have gotten many black griped lugers that were taken from SS officers and soldiers? That's funny, because ALL of my lugers were taken from SS officers too! I'll say it again, "buy the item, not the story". Ok, seriously now, yes, the SS did have lugers. And yes, I'm sure it possible that the SS did get some of the lugers issed with the black grips. However, there is certainly no evidence that these black grip lugers were somehow "tied" to the SS, or issued exclusively to the SS. I guess the black gripped P38s were issued to the SS as well? And also the black gripped PPks? Black gripped Radoms? Ok, I'll stop now, I could go on, but I think you get the point? Instead of getting rid of the term "black widow", how about we stop using the term "SS" to describe anything "black?" Also, the question on this thread was do you like the term "black widow?" Not, "do you like the black grips?" I like the black grips, and I think most collectors would agree. It adds another variation to the huge amount of luger variations already! I just don't like it when people try to represent them as something they are not. What Jason was really wondering, was if collectors still like to use the term "black widow" to describe these lugers, or if we could come up with a newer, perhaps better term. As I stated above, I don't care either way. If someone comes up with a better name fine. Otherwise, I'll just call them "byf41" or "byf42" with black grips. __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

04-26-2013, 01:28 PM	#3
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" could easily be replaced by "A black gripped luger by any other name would look as badass". I guess it all comes down to just how anal retentive one happens to be. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_retentiveness Personally, I don't care either way. I'll call it whatever you'd like. I'll go out on a limb and say that many who dislike the term "Black Widow" have no problem referring to the "United States Rifle, Caliber .30, M1" as a "Garand". It's not quite the same, but it's not much different. Jack By the way, nice luger! __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?