K date rig, all matching - Page 2

CJS57 · 06-16-2012, 06:53 AM

How does one fake an entire Luger? Do you start with an unmarked "sneak" and then make all the many stamps to remark it? Or do you hand cut the markings? What about the finishing? Can anyone refinish a Luger ( blue, halos, straw, tin plating, and aluminum) such that our experts here cannot tell? If it can fool the experts, how would anyone ever know? I am machine shop trained and have examined 500,000 and sold 10,000 collector guns over the last 50 years so I am not a beginner. Just curious how faking an entire gun is done?

klaus 3338 · 06-16-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balder

Gentlemen,

I have no strong opinions about the authenticity of the guns in question. However, as a Norwegian collector of Lugers I am curious about the Norwegian tools which I never have heard about. Is the production of these a documented fact?

Some years ago we had a discussion on this forum about Norwegian-made Luger parts. I contacted the curator at the museum of Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk (state arsenal) who also worked at the factory for many years after the war. According to him, the only Luger parts made there were barrels. I have seen several other parts with the Kongsberg logo, but these were German-made spare parts.

Now, whether he would consider the tool as a "part" I do not know, but I am pretty sure he would have mentioned it anyway if in fact they did make them. Sadly, he is not around anymore.

Balder

Please ask Jan Erik Martinsen from the Military Museum in Oslo about the tools. I remember that I saw in Oslo hundreds of tools in the 1980 and 1990 years. Many were from the Third Reich times and other made by Kongsberg after the war for the Lugers which were used by the Norwegian Army after the war.

Norme · 06-16-2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJS57

How does one fake an entire Luger? Do you start with an unmarked "sneak" and then make all the many stamps to remark it? Or do you hand cut the markings? What about the finishing? Can anyone refinish a Luger ( blue, halos, straw, tin plating, and aluminum) such that our experts here cannot tell? If it can fool the experts, how would anyone ever know? I am machine shop trained and have examined 500,000 and sold 10,000 collector guns over the last 50 years so I am not a beginner. Just curious how faking an entire gun is done?

Hi Chris, My primary area of interest is Imperial Navy Lugers and, trust me, anything from the humble loading tool to complete guns can be faked, as I know from bitter personal experience (see photos). A modern machine shop, as you must know, can reproduce anything made 70 to 100 years ago if there is sufficient financial incentive.
In the case of this K date, it was probably fabricated from a later Mauser, like a G date, in need of refinishing. After the old markings were removed and K date markings applied, it was refinished. We already know that the faker had access to period dies from the tool. A lot of work, I know, but the upside potential is enormous. All K dates, without exception, have sharp edged barrel bands. It's a shame that, when asked to post clearer photos, Myky had a hissy fit and left.
Regards, Norm

Jan C Still · 06-16-2012, 01:02 PM

Norme
Well stated:
"Hi Chris, My primary area of interest is Imperial Navy Lugers and, trust me, anything from the humble loading tool to complete guns can be faked, as I know from bitter personal experience (see photos). A modern machine shop, as you must know, can reproduce anything made 70 to 100 years ago if there is sufficient financial incentive.
In the case of this K date, it was probably fabricated from a later Mauser, like a G date, in need of refinishing. After the old markings were removed and K date markings applied, it was refinished. We already know that the faker had access to period dies from the tool. A lot of work, I know, but the upside potential is enormous."
Jan

andwaahs · 06-16-2012, 01:11 PM

If I am right the first alarm bell rang with the tool being Norwegian, why on earth would the faker, who seems to know exactly how to make a convincing copy, allow themself to be caught out by the machine marks on a tool?
surely they would attempt to "buff" them out or something?

Please dont flame me for this observation, just hard to work out in my newby mind.

I feel sympathy for Myky as the horror of realising you have been tricked must be gut wrenching and difficult to swallow, lets hope he comes back to the post when he is ready

Leon DeSpain · 06-16-2012, 01:15 PM

Hi,

I'm not attempting to comment on the subject gun but some amazing work has been done faking Lugers. A very long time collector bought the pistol in the following link and was convinced it was right. I borrowed it and took the pictures in the link. Let me know what you think.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page0137.html

Regards, Leon

andwaahs · 06-16-2012, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon DeSpain

Hi,

I'm not attempting to comment on the subject gun but some amazing work has been done faking Lugers. A very long time collector bought the pistol in the following link and was convinced it was right. I borrowed it and took the pictures in the link. Let me know what you think.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page0137.html

Regards, Leon

Well there are indeed some differences there, subtle but there non the less..

sheepherder · 06-16-2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

In the case of this K date, it was probably fabricated from a later Mauser, like a G date, in need of refinishing. After the old markings were removed and K date markings applied, it was refinished. We already know that the faker had access to period dies from the tool.

So the 'mechanic' or a partner would go to a large gun show, stake out a table showing Lugers, wait for a 'mark' asking enough questions to show he is interested and has $$$, and then swoop down on him and offer him a deal he can't resist on the K Date/Totenkopf/Russian Contract Luger...Oh, and I forgot the 'story' (every Luger has a story)..."Brought back by my grandfather, taken from the battlefield, never registered, stored 60+ years unfired (that's why the barrel is so nice & shiny), and because I've lost my job and want to keep my house I'm selling it at a loss...today only..."

I'm sorry to admit that I fell for a similar scam over on ARFCOM back in '04...

George Anderson · 06-16-2012, 05:38 PM

Sometimes they just float them on a collectors' website like this one.

alanint · 06-16-2012, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon DeSpain

Hi,

I'm not attempting to comment on the subject gun but some amazing work has been done faking Lugers. A very long time collector bought the pistol in the following link and was convinced it was right. I borrowed it and took the pictures in the link. Let me know what you think.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page0137.html

Regards, Leon

All those proofs appear to have been engraved, rather than stamped.

Leon DeSpain · 06-16-2012, 06:29 PM

Yes, there is more to the story also that I will relate after more have examined it.

Regards, Leon

A.Mifsin · 06-17-2012, 02:46 AM

"All K dates, without exception, have sharp edged barrel bands. "

Any chance of having a closeup photo of the above please?
Thanks.
Alf

Jan C Still · 06-17-2012, 03:27 AM

Leon
In addition to the things previously mentiomed,
the 8.82 on the barrel should have a comma 8,82 instead of a period.
Jan

Jan C Still · 06-17-2012, 03:38 AM

Here is a link to a detailed discussion of the K Date:
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...r-Data-Request

Jan

Leon DeSpain · 06-17-2012, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan C Still

Leon
In addition to the things previously mentiomed,
the 8.82 on the barrel should have a comma 8,82 instead of a period.
Jan

Hi Jan,

Yes, I have some text comments under some of the pictures. I did mention that. It's strange that with all the work that was put into that pistol, they would miss using a comma.

In particular, notice the style of the E/655 that is the barrel inspection stamp at 10 o'clock just in front of the receiver.

Regards, Leon

Frank Scarcello · 06-17-2012, 09:33 PM

Have a k frame also calf give me a call

sheepherder · 08-12-2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Scarcello

Have a k frame also calf give me a call

I missed this when it was posted - Frank, what is a 'calf'???

pitsword · 08-12-2012, 07:30 PM

Richie, a calf is either a young heifer or a young bull. Remember that a young bull poops and as it grows it makes bulls**t. Maybe that is what Frank is telling you.

kpf · 01-09-2013, 11:34 AM

Here is my Norwegian tool

Regards

Kai

Norway

NoncomRetired · 01-09-2013, 02:17 PM

This thread has been very "edjamakational", proving, you're never too old to learn something new.

06-17-2012, 02:46 AM	#32
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	"All K dates, without exception, have sharp edged barrel bands. " Any chance of having a closeup photo of the above please? Thanks. Alf __________________ I prefer a Luger

06-17-2012, 09:33 PM	#36
Frank Scarcello New User Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	K frame Have a k frame also calf give me a call

01-09-2013, 11:34 AM	#39
kpf User Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Finnøy, Norway Posts: 75 Thanks: 78 Thanked 36 Times in 10 Posts	My Norw tool Here is my Norwegian tool Regards Kai Norway

06-16-2012, 06:53 AM	#21
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	How does one fake an entire Luger? Do you start with an unmarked "sneak" and then make all the many stamps to remark it? Or do you hand cut the markings? What about the finishing? Can anyone refinish a Luger ( blue, halos, straw, tin plating, and aluminum) such that our experts here cannot tell? If it can fool the experts, how would anyone ever know? I am machine shop trained and have examined 500,000 and sold 10,000 collector guns over the last 50 years so I am not a beginner. Just curious how faking an entire gun is done?

06-16-2012, 01:02 PM	#24
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Norme Well stated: "Hi Chris, My primary area of interest is Imperial Navy Lugers and, trust me, anything from the humble loading tool to complete guns can be faked, as I know from bitter personal experience (see photos). A modern machine shop, as you must know, can reproduce anything made 70 to 100 years ago if there is sufficient financial incentive. In the case of this K date, it was probably fabricated from a later Mauser, like a G date, in need of refinishing. After the old markings were removed and K date markings applied, it was refinished. We already know that the faker had access to period dies from the tool. A lot of work, I know, but the upside potential is enormous." Jan

06-16-2012, 01:11 PM	#25
andwaahs User Join Date: May 2012 Location: Norway Posts: 85 Thanks: 41 Thanked 14 Times in 9 Posts	If I am right the first alarm bell rang with the tool being Norwegian, why on earth would the faker, who seems to know exactly how to make a convincing copy, allow themself to be caught out by the machine marks on a tool? surely they would attempt to "buff" them out or something? Please dont flame me for this observation, just hard to work out in my newby mind. I feel sympathy for Myky as the horror of realising you have been tricked must be gut wrenching and difficult to swallow, lets hope he comes back to the post when he is ready

06-16-2012, 01:15 PM	#26
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Hi, I'm not attempting to comment on the subject gun but some amazing work has been done faking Lugers. A very long time collector bought the pistol in the following link and was convinced it was right. I borrowed it and took the pictures in the link. Let me know what you think. http://lmd-militaria.com/page0137.html Regards, Leon

06-16-2012, 05:38 PM	#29
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Sometimes they just float them on a collectors' website like this one.

06-16-2012, 06:29 PM	#31
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Yes, there is more to the story also that I will relate after more have examined it. Regards, Leon

06-17-2012, 03:27 AM	#33
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Leon In addition to the things previously mentiomed, the 8.82 on the barrel should have a comma 8,82 instead of a period. Jan

06-17-2012, 03:38 AM	#34
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Here is a link to a detailed discussion of the K Date: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...r-Data-Request Jan

08-12-2012, 07:30 PM	#38
pitsword User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 456 Thanks: 3,919 Thanked 101 Times in 81 Posts	Richie, a calf is either a young heifer or a young bull. Remember that a young bull poops and as it grows it makes bulls**t. Maybe that is what Frank is telling you.

01-09-2013, 02:17 PM	#40
NoncomRetired Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 719 Thanks: 144 Thanked 306 Times in 146 Posts	This thread has been very "edjamakational", proving, you're never too old to learn something new.