G date Questions???

Paul L · 11-22-2012, 07:57 PM

All,

Photos attached...

After doing a lot of reading and searching here on the forum... I have questions as to the anomalies in a G date I bought this spring...

NO import marks anywhere.!!!!

Serial #5015 e... all matching with an unnumbered droop eagle 63 mag that has the "e" letter block and NO number... with no signs of an old # on floorplate being washed or ground off.???

All internal parts are number matched, including the grips.!! Internals are in the white As I have been taught and shown... but those that have looked at pistol swear its been reblued.????

witness marks line up on barrel... but no halo around numbers...and where I think I should see Milling marks on outside on Frame...it is smooth...like a repolish

Photos attached, looking for honest opinions!!! did I buy a dog...or is it unusual and right...????!!!!!!!

Thanks,
Paul

Paul L · 11-22-2012, 08:01 PM

Adding a 2nd round of photos....

Thanks,
Paul

Paul L · 11-22-2012, 08:07 PM

and a 3rd round of photos...

I want to make sure...there are enough to answer questions and get good looks at everything...

Paul

wlyon · 11-22-2012, 08:15 PM

Looks like a nice orginal G date to me. Not sure what to think about the mag bottom. Are you sure the original number was not removed? Anyway it looks fine to me. See what the Mauser experts say. Bill

Paul L · 11-22-2012, 08:22 PM

Mr. Lyon,

Thanks for your reply.!!!

There are no grinding marks...I can see No loss of metal on the mag base ....just looks like an unnumbered spare.????

From all the Luger mags I have...they are struck fairly deep.... there is no dip, gouge, or displacement of metal seen or felt..!!!!

HTH,
Thanks,
Paul

drbuster · 11-23-2012, 12:55 AM

I would vote for 100% original in all respects. The magazine bottom could have been ground down or just a field armorer's replacement. The acceptance markings on the right receiver are those of the late G dates.

jussi16 · 11-23-2012, 06:48 AM

If the magazine is a replacement, I don´t think there should be the letter suffix.
But the pistol is very nice!

jussi

Frank · 11-23-2012, 07:08 AM

FWIW Department, Your pistol is good to go (a very nice pistol).

The magazine has been messed with. It isn't an "armorers replacement" magazine. Try to find a "proper" magazine, one with a droop eagle over 63, in the E-Block, and numbered. Good Luck!

Paul L · 11-23-2012, 10:42 AM

All,

thanks for the comments... feel MUCH better about acquiring it now!!!

Funny, The guy I bought it from had a correct numbered mag in it.!!! until I showed him that someone had bogused it.... tried to pass off a stick eagle 63 blued body mag with the correct restamped number.!!! then showed him what he thought was an E suffix...was actually an L suffix...
This mag that I photo'd came with it after I coaxed him out of it...at least I can use it as a filler for the spare mag slot in a holster...

Thanks,

Paul

mrerick · 11-23-2012, 11:20 AM

Hi Paul, You have a very nice "G" Date Luger.

It's most likely that your magazine base has been scrubbed of the numeric digits. The round radius along the right edge of the base shows this. It was done rather well.

The straw looks remarkably full for a pistol of this age.

Could we see a sharp closeup of the barrel serial number taken in natural light? This pistol was rust blued at the factory, and the barrel serial number was stamped after bluing. It should show lightened areas around the stamped digits called "halos". The lack of halos would indicate refinishing or a restoration.

The quality of the work and the initial presence of an incorrect matching numbered magazine would indicate to me that it was redone by someone with great skill. It's possible that only some "problem" or highly visible areas were freshened up and redone.

If it was sold to you as all original, that would be a problem. If it was sold at a reblue price it would be fine.

Is there a number stamped inside the trigger plate? If so, what is it?

Marc

CJS57 · 11-23-2012, 05:18 PM

The knurled toggle knob's retaining pin should be in the white? The straw needs sharp and clear close up pictures to show us at least some tiny freckles and marks and scratches and so forth to be believable. Any gun not in hand is hard to judge even with perfect pictures.

Paul L · 11-23-2012, 11:56 PM

Marc,

I am at a 3 day gun show in Mi... for the weekend....I may not be able to get photos until Monday in the daylight....

I have just taken the sideplate off ...there is NO number stamped on the inside of it!!!!!!

I am shooting photos of the toggle pin inside....the pin is in the white... each end shows faded bright blue on each end.... I think NITRE BLUE...would be the correct term...and the 15 number stamped on the pin has a Halo around the number....

HTH,

Paul

Paul L · 11-23-2012, 11:59 PM

All

Here are the photos...of the toggle pin.!!!!!

Paul

Paul L · 11-24-2012, 12:18 AM

Marc and CJS57,

Here are the best I can do inside at the show for now.!!

As Far as I can see, there is NO halo... around the barrel serial number.!!!

That does not bode well for me.!!!

Funny, I had 2 advanced Luger collectors look at it today...they both gave it a thumbs up also... and they both have previously owned G dates... and I don't want to burn somebody else..!!! ;0(

Here are more pics I took inside here at an empty table....

HTH,
Paul

Norme · 11-24-2012, 08:36 AM

Hi Paul, I have to say that I am in two minds about this gun. On the one hand, it looks all original. The receiver rails properly "in the white", the drag line left by the safety lever, and the wear on the front of the receiver ears, are all good signs. On the other hand, the strawed parts look suspiciously clean, the lack of visible barrel serial halos, and that fishy magazine would lead me to question the integrity of the owner.
Are you sure you don't see halos? They are hard to photograph and are usually not as pronounced as those on Imperial DWMs and Erfurts. Shown below are three Mauser P08s with the early rust blued finish, a G date, a 1936, and a 1937.
Regards, Norm

CJS57 · 11-24-2012, 09:11 AM

Paul, Not that big axel pin (it looks just fine). The retaining pin I speak of is seen if you look at the top surface of the gun. The pin is tiny, 1/16" in diamenter. I is driven in flush between the two knurled knobs. It sits to the left, offcenter. You cannot remove it easily, that is not necessary. The tiny 1/16" diameter head of that pin should be in the white (or maybe have some fire blue), white is like the one shown below. The more I look at your gun the more I think it correct. Very hard to tell if a gun is correct from pictures alone and cell phone pictures make it even harder. If the local experts say ok, and you like it too, I would go for it.

mrerick · 11-24-2012, 10:04 AM

Hi Paul,

Regarding the side plate, it is correct for a "G" date side plate to not have numbers stamped inside the plate. This one is most likely matching.

Norm's pictures accurately show a range of halos on early rust blued Mauser barrels. Again, the lightened rust blued finish is a result of the metal stress caused when the numbers were stamped. Check with a magnifying glass in indirect sunlight. If there is no sign of this stress, the finish was applied after the numbers were stamped (which is not how it was done at the factory).

It's speculation, but I think that the high grade of steel used in the Mauser Lugers (as compared to the DWM an Erfurt Lugers) contributed to the halos being more difficult to see.

So.... considering everything seen to this point, I still lean toward a skilled restoration or partial restoration.

Marc

Paul L · 11-24-2012, 10:37 AM

Norme, Marc, All

quickly, while the gun show is revving up...

I have halos on my WWI Lugers... there are none here....... IF this gun was refinished... we all agree it was done long, long ago....by someone who knew what they were doing....partial restoration...???

The pin you talked about in the toggle appears to be faded nitre blue.... not white but not reblue....
The interesting part....is the patina....when you shine a light on the whole pistol...the rust blue patina is the same all the way thru....

Customers....gotta go.... BRB....

Paul

mrerick · 11-24-2012, 11:17 AM

You can judge the age of the finish by looking deeply into it to see how much red oxide has accumulated.

Generally, on a newly blued firearm you won't see much. On one that has aged, you'll see a small amount slowly develop.

Marc

Paul L · 11-24-2012, 12:53 PM

Marc,

I will try and capture the patina on this pistol of mine... the red oxide is definitely there across all all of barrel, canon, and frame....

wondering it it was damaged during the war and refinished then..???

Only speculation...but if this pistol was refinished... it sure as heck was done by someone that really knew their stuff.!!!

;0)

Paul

11-22-2012, 07:57 PM	#1
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	G date Questions??? All, Photos attached... After doing a lot of reading and searching here on the forum... I have questions as to the anomalies in a G date I bought this spring... NO import marks anywhere.!!!! Serial #5015 e... all matching with an unnumbered droop eagle 63 mag that has the "e" letter block and NO number... with no signs of an old # on floorplate being washed or ground off.??? All internal parts are number matched, including the grips.!! Internals are in the white As I have been taught and shown... but those that have looked at pistol swear its been reblued.???? witness marks line up on barrel... but no halo around numbers...and where I think I should see Milling marks on outside on Frame...it is smooth...like a repolish Photos attached, looking for honest opinions!!! did I buy a dog...or is it unusual and right...????!!!!!!! Thanks, Paul Attached Thumbnails

11-22-2012, 08:01 PM	#2
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Adding a 2nd round of photos.... Thanks, Paul Attached Thumbnails

11-22-2012, 08:07 PM	#3
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	and a 3rd round of photos... I want to make sure...there are enough to answer questions and get good looks at everything... Paul Attached Thumbnails

11-22-2012, 08:15 PM	#4
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,657 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,620 Times in 972 Posts	Looks like a nice orginal G date to me. Not sure what to think about the mag bottom. Are you sure the original number was not removed? Anyway it looks fine to me. See what the Mauser experts say. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

11-23-2012, 11:20 AM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Hi Paul, You have a very nice "G" Date Luger. It's most likely that your magazine base has been scrubbed of the numeric digits. The round radius along the right edge of the base shows this. It was done rather well. The straw looks remarkably full for a pistol of this age. Could we see a sharp closeup of the barrel serial number taken in natural light? This pistol was rust blued at the factory, and the barrel serial number was stamped after bluing. It should show lightened areas around the stamped digits called "halos". The lack of halos would indicate refinishing or a restoration. The quality of the work and the initial presence of an incorrect matching numbered magazine would indicate to me that it was redone by someone with great skill. It's possible that only some "problem" or highly visible areas were freshened up and redone. If it was sold to you as all original, that would be a problem. If it was sold at a reblue price it would be fine. Is there a number stamped inside the trigger plate? If so, what is it? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-22-2012, 08:22 PM	#5
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Mr. Lyon, Thanks for your reply.!!! There are no grinding marks...I can see No loss of metal on the mag base ....just looks like an unnumbered spare.???? From all the Luger mags I have...they are struck fairly deep.... there is no dip, gouge, or displacement of metal seen or felt..!!!! HTH, Thanks, Paul

11-23-2012, 12:55 AM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I would vote for 100% original in all respects. The magazine bottom could have been ground down or just a field armorer's replacement. The acceptance markings on the right receiver are those of the late G dates.

11-23-2012, 06:48 AM	#7
jussi16 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Finland Posts: 250 Thanks: 77 Thanked 52 Times in 31 Posts	If the magazine is a replacement, I don´t think there should be the letter suffix. But the pistol is very nice! jussi

11-23-2012, 07:08 AM	#8
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	FWIW Department, Your pistol is good to go (a very nice pistol). The magazine has been messed with. It isn't an "armorers replacement" magazine. Try to find a "proper" magazine, one with a droop eagle over 63, in the E-Block, and numbered. Good Luck!

11-23-2012, 10:42 AM	#9
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	All, thanks for the comments... feel MUCH better about acquiring it now!!! Funny, The guy I bought it from had a correct numbered mag in it.!!! until I showed him that someone had bogused it.... tried to pass off a stick eagle 63 blued body mag with the correct restamped number.!!! then showed him what he thought was an E suffix...was actually an L suffix... This mag that I photo'd came with it after I coaxed him out of it...at least I can use it as a filler for the spare mag slot in a holster... Thanks, Paul

11-23-2012, 05:18 PM	#11
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	The knurled toggle knob's retaining pin should be in the white? The straw needs sharp and clear close up pictures to show us at least some tiny freckles and marks and scratches and so forth to be believable. Any gun not in hand is hard to judge even with perfect pictures.

11-23-2012, 11:56 PM	#12
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Marc, I am at a 3 day gun show in Mi... for the weekend....I may not be able to get photos until Monday in the daylight.... I have just taken the sideplate off ...there is NO number stamped on the inside of it!!!!!! I am shooting photos of the toggle pin inside....the pin is in the white... each end shows faded bright blue on each end.... I think NITRE BLUE...would be the correct term...and the 15 number stamped on the pin has a Halo around the number.... HTH, Paul

11-23-2012, 11:59 PM	#13
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	All Here are the photos...of the toggle pin.!!!!! Paul Attached Thumbnails

11-24-2012, 12:18 AM	#14
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Marc and CJS57, Here are the best I can do inside at the show for now.!! As Far as I can see, there is NO halo... around the barrel serial number.!!! That does not bode well for me.!!! Funny, I had 2 advanced Luger collectors look at it today...they both gave it a thumbs up also... and they both have previously owned G dates... and I don't want to burn somebody else..!!! ;0( Here are more pics I took inside here at an empty table.... HTH, Paul Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Paul L; 11-24-2012 at 12:20 AM. Reason: info change

11-24-2012, 08:36 AM	#15
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Paul, I have to say that I am in two minds about this gun. On the one hand, it looks all original. The receiver rails properly "in the white", the drag line left by the safety lever, and the wear on the front of the receiver ears, are all good signs. On the other hand, the strawed parts look suspiciously clean, the lack of visible barrel serial halos, and that fishy magazine would lead me to question the integrity of the owner. Are you sure you don't see halos? They are hard to photograph and are usually not as pronounced as those on Imperial DWMs and Erfurts. Shown below are three Mauser P08s with the early rust blued finish, a G date, a 1936, and a 1937. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

11-24-2012, 09:11 AM	#16
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	Paul, Not that big axel pin (it looks just fine). The retaining pin I speak of is seen if you look at the top surface of the gun. The pin is tiny, 1/16" in diamenter. I is driven in flush between the two knurled knobs. It sits to the left, offcenter. You cannot remove it easily, that is not necessary. The tiny 1/16" diameter head of that pin should be in the white (or maybe have some fire blue), white is like the one shown below. The more I look at your gun the more I think it correct. Very hard to tell if a gun is correct from pictures alone and cell phone pictures make it even harder. If the local experts say ok, and you like it too, I would go for it.

11-24-2012, 10:04 AM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Hi Paul, Regarding the side plate, it is correct for a "G" date side plate to not have numbers stamped inside the plate. This one is most likely matching. Norm's pictures accurately show a range of halos on early rust blued Mauser barrels. Again, the lightened rust blued finish is a result of the metal stress caused when the numbers were stamped. Check with a magnifying glass in indirect sunlight. If there is no sign of this stress, the finish was applied after the numbers were stamped (which is not how it was done at the factory). It's speculation, but I think that the high grade of steel used in the Mauser Lugers (as compared to the DWM an Erfurt Lugers) contributed to the halos being more difficult to see. So.... considering everything seen to this point, I still lean toward a skilled restoration or partial restoration. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-24-2012, 10:37 AM	#18
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Norme, Marc, All quickly, while the gun show is revving up... I have halos on my WWI Lugers... there are none here....... IF this gun was refinished... we all agree it was done long, long ago....by someone who knew what they were doing....partial restoration...??? The pin you talked about in the toggle appears to be faded nitre blue.... not white but not reblue.... The interesting part....is the patina....when you shine a light on the whole pistol...the rust blue patina is the same all the way thru.... Customers....gotta go.... BRB.... Paul

11-24-2012, 11:17 AM	#19
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	You can judge the age of the finish by looking deeply into it to see how much red oxide has accumulated. Generally, on a newly blued firearm you won't see much. On one that has aged, you'll see a small amount slowly develop. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

11-24-2012, 12:53 PM	#20
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Marc, I will try and capture the patina on this pistol of mine... the red oxide is definitely there across all all of barrel, canon, and frame.... wondering it it was damaged during the war and refinished then..??? Only speculation...but if this pistol was refinished... it sure as heck was done by someone that really knew their stuff.!!! ;0) Paul