Got the beater on RIAC

alvin · 04-21-2012, 09:46 PM

Conehammer (CH) with thin receiver is relatively rare. A few hundred of those were made before the Turkisk contract. Most CH in the U.S. had provenance of British empire, but those British ones were after Turkish. Probably that's why early ones do not show up for sale here in the U.S. very often. Including this one, I have seen two for sale publicly in a few years. The other one was 98%, but that one was refurbished. This one fills one hole in the collection.

padredan · 04-21-2012, 11:15 PM

doesn't look like a beater to me, nice one.

Edward Tinker · 04-22-2012, 12:08 AM

I agree, looks nice to me!

alvin · 04-22-2012, 05:36 AM

That's comparing the condition with English Conehammers. British knew how to take care of guns, many Conehammers were preserved well in original shape. So we still see nice CH from time to time even after 100 years. The provenance of this one is unknown. Probably not English nor Irish.

padredan · 04-22-2012, 08:51 AM

It still looks very nice, congrats again on your find.

alvin · 04-22-2012, 08:58 AM

Thanks. Also watched a small ring C96 carbine, but that one is out of my affordable range (sold 30k before BP). Putting down three bids, only this one comes. Missed a very nice Japanese military Shin Gunto, also missed a miniature Thompson.

pitsword · 04-22-2012, 11:14 AM

Beautiful. Nice work Alvin. Thanks for sharing your collection and knowledge with us.

alvin · 04-22-2012, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Alvin only collects the best...To him, this is a 'beater'...

For most small ring hammer variations, maybe that's true. Many of them survived. It's not hard to find a nice one. All I have to do was holding my other desires and saving money.

But some Broomhandle variations, regardless of condition, seldom show up. Flatside Bolo? Large Ring six-shot? Long barrel Royal? etc.... Too few were made initially. If they are in NRA Good condition, I will consider.

alvin · 04-22-2012, 06:51 PM

Actually, there is no rare gun. Only rare money

Looks like refurbished though.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=283200937

alvin · 04-22-2012, 07:27 PM

I never understand this. Quite a few documented C96 have refurbished recently in the past 20 years. Who cares that extra 10% condition? Many nice C96 were ruined this way.

Before internet era, I guess many collectors did not realize the importance of "keeping it as is".

MikeP · 04-22-2012, 08:56 PM

Agree.
I do not get the "restoration" craze that seems to be sweeping the hobby.

Guess I'm getting old.

wlyon · 04-22-2012, 09:27 PM

Me either Mike. I suppose in a few years the restorations will be sold as original linen drawer specials. Bill

CJS57 · 04-23-2012, 06:19 AM

I don't get the refinishing craze either. Refinished or restored guns just have no history, no charm no charisma. I always want to sell them right away! I think this trend is because of "new" or even younger collectors who don't really "get it" yet. They think it is like cars where restored is ok.

wlyon · 04-23-2012, 11:53 AM

When we have someone who can restore like Thor it makes me realize why some like it. What a master craftsman!! Bill

saab-bob · 04-23-2012, 02:11 PM

Alvin
I watched the RIA auction this weekend as well.As usual, I didn't see many deals. Lots of so-so guns went for big money.
I do not understand what the attraction was for a Navy luger that went for 100k!?

A nice cased luger carbine went for 20k,not bad.I guess it was refinished,however.

The old car hobby seems to be turning away from restoring every old car to better then factory new condition. Led by the Europeans,if a noteworthy car is found in unrestored (but well preserved condition),it is now considered bad form to restore it. There is now a preservation class at the Pebble Beach Concurs for unrestored cars. At some of the high end auto auctions,the well preserved cars are bringing all the money. The reasoning is the same for the cars as for the guns. You lose all sense of history of the item.
As the pundits say in the collector car hobby " a car is only original once!"

That being said,the collector gun hobby is truly blessed by having a Master Craftsman like Thor doing gun restorations. If he decided to restore old cars instead of guns,with his attention to detail and perfectionist attitude,he would be earning 100 times what he is earning now.

Bob

alvin · 04-23-2012, 05:59 PM

Bob, I agree that restoration makes sense in some scenarios. But for the above mentioned Large Ring Bolo listed on gunbroker.com, it's a perfect chance to look at "before" and "after".

"before" as printed on Erickson & Pate page 178 (bigger picture on page 182) was a 90% gun, refurbish a 90% to 98%, on such a rare variation,,,, that's beyond reasonable. That's not restoration. That's damage. Another example was the Conehammer on page 36. It's now also refurbished to 98%.

If it were a 1930 or postwar Bolo in poor shape, sure, restoration could be considered.

saab-bob · 04-23-2012, 06:18 PM

Alvin
I totally agree with you. Why take away the originality and history of a well cared for gun,just to make it more shiny???
That is what I was trying to say with my talking about the attitude changes in the collector car hobby with well preserved original cars.
Bob

alvin · 04-24-2012, 09:02 AM

Some items are good deal in Hermann-Historica.com yesterday.

Item #951 minty Imperial Stock sold 320 Euros. That's ~USD$520 BP included. Very fair. I had considered that one, and thought about online bidding... but I forgot that auction yesterday.

alvin · 05-04-2012, 07:08 AM

Received the conehammer.

It's a very honest gun inside and out, in "NRA Good" shape. The gun had its hammer broken in the past, and was replaced by a unnumbered one and put into service again. The bolt stop, sear spring, and disconnector are unnumbered as well, but the shape are period and fit well. The finish is original. The bore is good, matching overall condition.

It's interesting to note how hard it is to take the firing pin out, and even harder to put it back in due to the very strong firing pin return spring. Was this universal on low serial C96? I don't know. On 5 instances of later "Standard Conehammer" that I've gotten chance disassembled, removing and putting back firing pin was easier.

Will make an ammo with primer only to test how hard this hammer/firing pin hitting the primer.

alvin · 03-12-2013, 04:25 PM

Just got conehammer #973 from Julia. This pistol in the topic was #974. So they are consecutively numbered! They must be made in the same day in 1897. After 116 years, they re-united again.

#973 loses all its finish, no blue left, and the stock is a replacement. But unlike many other poor Mausers that I have met, it does not have rust or serious defects on the steel. The whole pistol is covered by patina, and looks much better than seller's photos suggest.

04-21-2012, 09:46 PM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Got the beater on RIAC Conehammer (CH) with thin receiver is relatively rare. A few hundred of those were made before the Turkisk contract. Most CH in the U.S. had provenance of British empire, but those British ones were after Turkish. Probably that's why early ones do not show up for sale here in the U.S. very often. Including this one, I have seen two for sale publicly in a few years. The other one was 98%, but that one was refurbished. This one fills one hole in the collection. Attached Thumbnails

04-21-2012, 11:15 PM	#2
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	doesn't look like a beater to me, nice one. __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

04-22-2012, 12:08 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I agree, looks nice to me! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-22-2012, 08:51 AM	#5
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	It still looks very nice, congrats again on your find. __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

04-22-2012, 09:27 PM	#12
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	Me either Mike. I suppose in a few years the restorations will be sold as original linen drawer specials. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

04-22-2012, 05:36 AM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	That's comparing the condition with English Conehammers. British knew how to take care of guns, many Conehammers were preserved well in original shape. So we still see nice CH from time to time even after 100 years. The provenance of this one is unknown. Probably not English nor Irish.

04-22-2012, 08:58 AM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Thanks. Also watched a small ring C96 carbine, but that one is out of my affordable range (sold 30k before BP). Putting down three bids, only this one comes. Missed a very nice Japanese military Shin Gunto, also missed a miniature Thompson.

04-22-2012, 11:14 AM	#7
pitsword User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 459 Thanks: 3,964 Thanked 103 Times in 83 Posts	Beautiful. Nice work Alvin. Thanks for sharing your collection and knowledge with us.

04-22-2012, 06:51 PM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Actually, there is no rare gun. Only rare money Looks like refurbished though. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=283200937

04-22-2012, 07:27 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I never understand this. Quite a few documented C96 have refurbished recently in the past 20 years. Who cares that extra 10% condition? Many nice C96 were ruined this way. Before internet era, I guess many collectors did not realize the importance of "keeping it as is".

04-22-2012, 08:56 PM	#11
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Agree. I do not get the "restoration" craze that seems to be sweeping the hobby. Guess I'm getting old.

04-23-2012, 06:19 AM	#13
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	I don't get the refinishing craze either. Refinished or restored guns just have no history, no charm no charisma. I always want to sell them right away! I think this trend is because of "new" or even younger collectors who don't really "get it" yet. They think it is like cars where restored is ok.

04-23-2012, 11:53 AM	#14
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	When we have someone who can restore like Thor it makes me realize why some like it. What a master craftsman!! Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

04-23-2012, 02:11 PM	#15
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Alvin I watched the RIA auction this weekend as well.As usual, I didn't see many deals. Lots of so-so guns went for big money. I do not understand what the attraction was for a Navy luger that went for 100k!? A nice cased luger carbine went for 20k,not bad.I guess it was refinished,however. The old car hobby seems to be turning away from restoring every old car to better then factory new condition. Led by the Europeans,if a noteworthy car is found in unrestored (but well preserved condition),it is now considered bad form to restore it. There is now a preservation class at the Pebble Beach Concurs for unrestored cars. At some of the high end auto auctions,the well preserved cars are bringing all the money. The reasoning is the same for the cars as for the guns. You lose all sense of history of the item. As the pundits say in the collector car hobby " a car is only original once!" That being said,the collector gun hobby is truly blessed by having a Master Craftsman like Thor doing gun restorations. If he decided to restore old cars instead of guns,with his attention to detail and perfectionist attitude,he would be earning 100 times what he is earning now. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

04-23-2012, 05:59 PM	#16
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Bob, I agree that restoration makes sense in some scenarios. But for the above mentioned Large Ring Bolo listed on gunbroker.com, it's a perfect chance to look at "before" and "after". "before" as printed on Erickson & Pate page 178 (bigger picture on page 182) was a 90% gun, refurbish a 90% to 98%, on such a rare variation,,,, that's beyond reasonable. That's not restoration. That's damage. Another example was the Conehammer on page 36. It's now also refurbished to 98%. If it were a 1930 or postwar Bolo in poor shape, sure, restoration could be considered.

04-23-2012, 06:18 PM	#17
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Alvin I totally agree with you. Why take away the originality and history of a well cared for gun,just to make it more shiny??? That is what I was trying to say with my talking about the attitude changes in the collector car hobby with well preserved original cars. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

04-24-2012, 09:02 AM	#18
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Some items are good deal in Hermann-Historica.com yesterday. Item #951 minty Imperial Stock sold 320 Euros. That's ~USD$520 BP included. Very fair. I had considered that one, and thought about online bidding... but I forgot that auction yesterday.

05-04-2012, 07:08 AM	#19
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Received the conehammer. It's a very honest gun inside and out, in "NRA Good" shape. The gun had its hammer broken in the past, and was replaced by a unnumbered one and put into service again. The bolt stop, sear spring, and disconnector are unnumbered as well, but the shape are period and fit well. The finish is original. The bore is good, matching overall condition. It's interesting to note how hard it is to take the firing pin out, and even harder to put it back in due to the very strong firing pin return spring. Was this universal on low serial C96? I don't know. On 5 instances of later "Standard Conehammer" that I've gotten chance disassembled, removing and putting back firing pin was easier. Will make an ammo with primer only to test how hard this hammer/firing pin hitting the primer.

03-12-2013, 04:25 PM	#20
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Just got conehammer #973 from Julia. This pistol in the topic was #974. So they are consecutively numbered! They must be made in the same day in 1897. After 116 years, they re-united again. #973 loses all its finish, no blue left, and the stock is a replacement. But unlike many other poor Mausers that I have met, it does not have rust or serious defects on the steel. The whole pistol is covered by patina, and looks much better than seller's photos suggest.