Dutch Justice department drops Sig-Sauer

Vlim · 11-08-2011, 05:14 PM

This is just in:

The purchase of the new replacement service pistol of the Dutch police, a Sig Sauer, has been cancelled. The pistol does not meet the requirements, according to minister of Safety and Justice, Ivo Opstelten.

He feels it is no longer responsible to continue with this pistol, there is insufficient trust in the reliability of it, which can endanger the safety of the police officers on the street.

The new pistol suffers from too many malfunctions, which was confirmed by tests conducted by the Ulm proof house.

The pistol was tested four times, all times "Sig-Sauer was not able to replicate the quality of the pistol that won them the contract" according to the minister.

This will mean a serious delay of the replacement of the current service pistols, the Walther P5 and the Glock 17.

alanint · 11-08-2011, 07:23 PM

This is what happens when manufacturers are pushed to develop "safer and safer" DAO, triple safety disconnect, idiot proof, etc. pistols.

lew1 · 11-08-2011, 07:55 PM

Although I favor the Hi Power, what is wrong with the Walther P5 and the Glock 17 that they need to be replaced?

Vlim · 11-09-2011, 05:37 AM

The Walther P5 suffers from increased barrel wear due to the 'action' ammunition that is in use since the late 1980s. This already caused the special arrest teams to switch to the Glock 17, but it has not enough safety features for the average police officer.

lew1 · 11-09-2011, 06:59 AM

I don't mean this to be a silly question, but if there is increased barrel wear, why not just replace the barrel. It would be a lot cheaper.

I was starting to get barrel wear on a Hi Power once and I just changed the barrel and used a milder ammunication.

alanint · 11-09-2011, 07:50 AM

I can't imagine the average police officer ever firing enough ammunition in an entire career to cause noticeable barrel wear. Better barrels are in order.

I imagine that Glock's Polygonal rifling is better suited to this ammo?

Vlim, do you have a link to this story in English? I have friends who would be interested.

Thanks!

Ezra · 11-14-2011, 10:41 PM

If memory serves, the Walther P5's have been in service for 30 years with the Dutch National Police. That is a long stint by any measure.

As a side note, the SIG P250 has a less than sterling reputation (I am being diplomatic) amongst many in the firearms community. The P250 has failed spectacularly more than once during testing for large law enforcement style contracts. It was a solution looking for a problem. And SIGs marketing and follow through of the pistol was, shall we say, less than optimum.

Ez

Olle · 11-15-2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezra

It was a solution looking for a problem.

I believe that one of the problems they were trying to solve was that many countries require a separate licence for each and every firearm you own. If this licence is tied to the frame only, you can own a gun that allows you to shoot multiple calibers but with only one license. It doesn't make much sense in the US, but it could very well be a strong selling point on the private market in other countries.

SteveM · 11-15-2011, 08:01 PM

Did they even consider CZ pistols?

Ezra · 11-15-2011, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveM

Did they even consider CZ pistols?

An excellent option. The other pistols in the running were the Walther P99 and the HK P30.

Ez

Vlim · 11-16-2011, 09:58 AM

One of the problems is that they are not allowed, by law, to make their own choice. They have to allow all companies to make an offer and select the best one from the lot. The best one usually being the cheapest one

EU-legislation at it's worst. We are no longer able to protect our own markets or to select companies for their proven track-record. Well, the result is clear. Northern European countries are being bled dry by Eastern European and Southern European countries leeching off of us.
Some call that progress.

minigun · 11-28-2011, 05:24 PM

They should go Hk (Heckler and Koch).

SIG's quality has really been lacking the last few years.

drbuster · 11-28-2011, 10:19 PM

If the Dutch authorities used the CZ-75, we wouldn't be seeing this thread.

Vlim · 01-08-2012, 09:22 AM

This is just in:

It seems that the Dutch police have opted for the runner-up. The contract for 40,000 police pistols will now go to Heckler & Koch, for a modified version of their P30 pistol.

alvin · 01-08-2012, 09:33 AM

Probably works like my Volkswagen -

Don't know what's in those German's mind -- if not strong on electronics, then why don't keep it simple? With all those troublesome sensors generating false alarms, I have to "repair" it to turn off the checking engine light to pass car inspection every year.

minigun · 01-08-2012, 10:10 PM

I knew it! Hk wins as usual. They have some of the greatest firearms in the world.

11-08-2011, 05:14 PM	#1
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Dutch Justice department drops Sig-Sauer This is just in: The purchase of the new replacement service pistol of the Dutch police, a Sig Sauer, has been cancelled. The pistol does not meet the requirements, according to minister of Safety and Justice, Ivo Opstelten. He feels it is no longer responsible to continue with this pistol, there is insufficient trust in the reliability of it, which can endanger the safety of the police officers on the street. The new pistol suffers from too many malfunctions, which was confirmed by tests conducted by the Ulm proof house. The pistol was tested four times, all times "Sig-Sauer was not able to replicate the quality of the pistol that won them the contract" according to the minister. This will mean a serious delay of the replacement of the current service pistols, the Walther P5 and the Glock 17. Attached Thumbnails

11-08-2011, 07:55 PM	#3
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	Although I favor the Hi Power, what is wrong with the Walther P5 and the Glock 17 that they need to be replaced? __________________ charlie

11-09-2011, 06:59 AM	#5
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	I don't mean this to be a silly question, but if there is increased barrel wear, why not just replace the barrel. It would be a lot cheaper. I was starting to get barrel wear on a Hi Power once and I just changed the barrel and used a milder ammunication. __________________ charlie

11-08-2011, 07:23 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	This is what happens when manufacturers are pushed to develop "safer and safer" DAO, triple safety disconnect, idiot proof, etc. pistols.

11-09-2011, 05:37 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	The Walther P5 suffers from increased barrel wear due to the 'action' ammunition that is in use since the late 1980s. This already caused the special arrest teams to switch to the Glock 17, but it has not enough safety features for the average police officer.

11-09-2011, 07:50 AM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	I can't imagine the average police officer ever firing enough ammunition in an entire career to cause noticeable barrel wear. Better barrels are in order. I imagine that Glock's Polygonal rifling is better suited to this ammo? Vlim, do you have a link to this story in English? I have friends who would be interested. Thanks!

11-14-2011, 10:41 PM	#7
Ezra User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Washington State Posts: 43 Thanks: 4 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	If memory serves, the Walther P5's have been in service for 30 years with the Dutch National Police. That is a long stint by any measure. As a side note, the SIG P250 has a less than sterling reputation (I am being diplomatic) amongst many in the firearms community. The P250 has failed spectacularly more than once during testing for large law enforcement style contracts. It was a solution looking for a problem. And SIGs marketing and follow through of the pistol was, shall we say, less than optimum. Ez

11-15-2011, 08:01 PM	#9
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Did they even consider CZ pistols?

11-16-2011, 09:58 AM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	One of the problems is that they are not allowed, by law, to make their own choice. They have to allow all companies to make an offer and select the best one from the lot. The best one usually being the cheapest one EU-legislation at it's worst. We are no longer able to protect our own markets or to select companies for their proven track-record. Well, the result is clear. Northern European countries are being bled dry by Eastern European and Southern European countries leeching off of us. Some call that progress.

11-28-2011, 05:24 PM	#12
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 16 Thanked 20 Times in 15 Posts	They should go Hk (Heckler and Koch). SIG's quality has really been lacking the last few years.

11-28-2011, 10:19 PM	#13
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	If the Dutch authorities used the CZ-75, we wouldn't be seeing this thread.

01-08-2012, 09:22 AM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	This is just in: It seems that the Dutch police have opted for the runner-up. The contract for 40,000 police pistols will now go to Heckler & Koch, for a modified version of their P30 pistol.

01-08-2012, 09:33 AM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Probably works like my Volkswagen - Don't know what's in those German's mind -- if not strong on electronics, then why don't keep it simple? With all those troublesome sensors generating false alarms, I have to "repair" it to turn off the checking engine light to pass car inspection every year.

01-08-2012, 10:10 PM	#16
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 16 Thanked 20 Times in 15 Posts	I knew it! Hk wins as usual. They have some of the greatest firearms in the world.