Vihtavuori powder & 30 Luger

GIFFROY · 10-11-2011, 02:53 PM

Hello everybody,
I am quite new on this forum. Used to reload for rifles and for FN-Browning High power 9mm and M1910 32ACP.
I just acquired a beautyful Model 06-29 Swiss Luger.
Does anyone know how to reload .30 Luger with Vihtavuori N 310 and/or N 320 powders?
I plan to use Hornady 86 RN (#3100) or 93 FMJ (#1419) grain .308 bullets or H&N 86 grain RN HS copperised lead .309 bullets.
Thank you.

nukem556 · 10-11-2011, 08:33 PM

I dont have any info on using Vithavouri in .30 Luger , but WHERE do you plan on finding the 93gr FMJ bullets? Me and a couple dozen more folks on here would love to know!

Freischütz · 10-11-2011, 09:20 PM

The Vihtavuori loading manuals show a little data for the 7.65 Par. But, they only show N340.

Perhaps an e-mail to Vihtavuori would produce results.

GIFFROY · 10-12-2011, 03:45 AM

Answer to nukem556 : First you have to kow that I live in Belgium (the small european country that is without gouvernment from june 2010). I wrote I plan to reload with 93 gr bullets; I do't have them yet; my intention is to duplicate the factory load. I found mention of a Sako FMJ 93 gr on Vihtavuori Ladedata. Maybe is it imported in the US?

Answer to Freischütz : Thank you. Do tou know if this N 340 gives good results? I emailed Vihtavuori and wait for their answer; they are usually very helpful and I think they make a good reseach.

rhuff · 10-12-2011, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukem556

I dont have any info on using Vithavouri in .30 Luger , but WHERE do you plan on finding the 93gr FMJ bullets? Me and a couple dozen more folks on here would love to know!

\
I researched the bullet that the OP mentioned, and can not find where that bullet is exported to the USA. I got all excited about finally having a good bullet for the 30 Luger, but I got shut down.

Freischütz · 10-13-2011, 02:58 PM

Hello - I've never used N340 in the 7.65. I use it in the 7.63 Mauser and have good results. I use it to produce 1250 fps practice loads. I'm impressed by its clean burning. It also meters consistently.

GIFFROY · 10-17-2011, 05:44 PM

Vihtavuori answered to my questions and were again very helpful. They suggest, with a Sierra RN 85 grains (.308) :
2,8 grains N-310, Vo +/- 1100 f/s = starting load
3,5 grains N-310, Vo +/- 1200 f/s) = maximum load
or
3,7 grains N-320, Vo +/- 1200 f/s = starting load
4,3 grains N-320, Vo +/- 1300 f/s = maximum load

Freischütz · 10-19-2011, 05:26 PM

Thanks for posting Vihtavuori's response. I'll put a copy of it in my reloading manual.

rhuff · 10-19-2011, 06:07 PM

Yes, thank you for the information. I just copied it down to place it in one of my reloading books. I have never used that powder, but have loaded that bullet(#100). Any new information on loading the 30Luger is most appreciated by me.

GIFFROY · 10-21-2011, 09:36 AM

I will post the results as soon as they exist. Il will only receive the brass in a couple of months. So it is not for tomorrow!

GIFFROY · 11-01-2011, 10:14 AM

About Vihtavuori powders, I got an information from the german bullets manufacturer H&N who does not recommand N310 for the .30 Luger and prefers the N320.

GIFFROY · 12-14-2011, 02:39 AM

I have made some experiences with my Swiss Lüger 06/29 chambered in .30 Luger
I tried Vectan BA-9 (french powder) and Vihtavuori N-320 pushing H&N RN HS .311 86 grains bullets; primer : Winchester Small Pistol Standard; case : Starline trimmed to 21,5 mm (if necessary); cartridge overall lenght : 29,6 mm.
1. For the BA-9 :
5 cartridges loaded with 4,9 grains of BA-9 gave as Vo : 327, 335, 341, 347 and 326 m/s (mean = 335,3 m/s)
5 cartridges loaded with 5,0 grains of BA-9 gave as Vo : 356, 350, 334, 358 and 354 m/s (mean = 350,4 m/s)
Incomplete ejection of empty case for 2 cartridges of the first batch and for one of the second (underligned).
No sign of overpressure visible on the primers.
The minimum Vo necessary for the operation of the pistol with this bullet seems to be 335 m/s.
To have a 100 % functionning of the pistol it is necessary to increase the powder load (5,1 maybe 5,2 grains).
Do anyone think that the pressures will remain acceptable? On the web, some reloaders consider 4,9 grains as the maximum, others are going till 5,4 grains.
2. For the N-320 :
I tried 3,7; 3,8; 3,9; 4,0; 4,1; 4,3 and 4,3 grains with no sign of overpressure on the primers.
I measured the Vo of only one cartridge loaded with 4,0 grains of N-320 and obtained 357 m/s.
The german magazine VIZIER SPECIAL N° 48 marz 2008 on "Pistole 08" explains (page N° 81) that for the same bullet (H&N 86 gr), same speed (363 and 365 m/s) and same precision, the N-320 (4,0 gr) gives a much higher pressure than the N-340 (4,6 gr) : 1691 versus 1311 bar.
I do not have Vihtavuori N-340 and this powder is rather difficult to find in my country.
Is it nevertheless recommended to use 4,0 gr N-320?

rhuff · 12-14-2011, 05:20 PM

I sure do wish that I could help you out, but I have never used that bullet, or any of those powders. I have been using Alliant Red Dot, and Bullseye powders for my 30Luger reloads. I have to run them very near, or at the max loading to get 100% reliability of my 1920 DWM Luger.

I am trying a new bullet(to me). I got them from Western Bullet Company. They advertise it as a 30Luger bullet. It is out of Lyman mold #311227, and is sized to .309 in. It is a LRN, but does not have a cannalure/crimp groove for a roll crimp. I load it as long as I possibly can (1.150 +/- .005 in.). That is just barely above the last grease groove. Then by using a Lee FCD, which is a collet crimp die( bottle neck brass), it will produce a mild crimp into the superior part of the grease groove to help keep from getting bullet set-back when feeding up the feed ramp. I have only fired #25 of these, but the results were excellent in my gun. I ordered 1.5K more of them. I don't know if this info will help anyone, but there is so little info on reloading the 30Luger ammo, that I felt like it might help someone.

GIFFROY · 12-16-2011, 03:21 AM

Hello Rhuff,

Thank you for your informations. It is allways interesting to exchange data when the available is few. The Haendler & Natermann (H&N) company makes lead and cupperised handgun and rifle bullets; their website is interesting. The 86 gr Round Nose High Speed .311 is especially made for .30 Luger in cupperised lead. They say that the lead is soft enough to adapt to all diameters and also soft enough to become "cannelured" when a taper crimp is made. With Starline or Winchester brass, I think it is not necessary to crimp; I left 2 dummy cartridges (1 SL and 1 Win) in the magazine and shot 30 rounds without any change in the cartridge overall length.

rhuff · 12-16-2011, 03:47 PM

Giffroy,

Good to hear from you again. I believe that a large majority of the folks on this forum are collectors/buyers/sellers, and not shooters. Of the shooters, not too many of them are reloaders, so they purchase 9mm Lugers, and not 30Luger caliber. The factory ammo(Winchester and Fiocchi) is expensive here in the USA.

The original 30Luger ammo, and the current day 30Luger ammo, have a roll crimp into a cannalure to stop set back when the round feed into the chamber. The neck on the brass is so short, that it is difficult to get enough neck tension on the bullet to prevent set back.

Loading the .309 lead RN is easier to prevent setback, than when I load the Hornady or Sierra 86gr JSP with a .308 diameter. I plan to add a cannalure to these bullets(I own a cannalure tool) the next time that I load them to see if it will help with set back of the bullet. I have never tried to load .311 diameter bullets.

coverk · 12-16-2011, 10:14 PM

The Lee Factory crimp die creates a canalure as it creates the crimp. It is very effective in preventing the set back problem.

GIFFROY · 12-19-2011, 04:50 AM

Hello covert and rhuff,

Maybe I have not explained clearly enough : I have no problem with the setback of the bullets left in the magazine. Without crimp (or with a very light crimp) the lenght of 2 dummy cartridges remained unchanged during more than 20 shots.
I have just the problem to find a powder load giving a reasonable pressure AND strong enough to make the pistol operate. I will try 4,1 or 4,2 grains of N-320 ith my 86 grains bullets.
Anyway thank you very much for the help.

giffroy

rhuff · 12-19-2011, 03:39 PM

Giffroy,

One would not expect to have set back in the magazine from firing the pistol. If anything, one would expect the bullet to be "pulled" (increase the OAL) from firing as is sometimes seen in high caliber centerfire revolvers, and the locking the cylinder. The main problem with set back in a semi-auto is when the bullet strikes the feed ramp. If it does set back the bullet, and you are near/at max powder charge, then the chamber pressures can go quite high, and cause a problem/kaboom!!

If you are near/at max powder load, and not getting reliable toggle function, perhaps you might consider installing a lighter weight recoil spring.....Just a thought.

Freischütz · 12-25-2011, 01:18 AM

I've never had a P.08 set bullets back into the case. I use cast bullets without crimp grooves and have sized as small as .309".

On the other hand, the C96 will set bullets back. When loading 10 rounds I make sure cases are on no more than their third or fourth reloading.

GIFFROY · 01-17-2012, 07:50 AM

I got a good load with :
bullet : H&N (copperised lead) 86 grains HS RN .311
primer : Winchester Small Pistol Standard
case : Winchester trimmed to 21,5 mm
powder : (French) Vectan BA-9 : 5,1 grains
cartridge length : 29,6 mm
I measured the velocity of ten rounds and obtained the following results :
Mean : μ = 363,3 m/s
Maximum dispersion : dm = 18 m/s
Standard deviation σ = 5,1 m/s
No signs of overpressure and good functioning of the weapon.

12-16-2011, 10:14 PM	#16
coverk User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Central Wisconsin Posts: 34 Thanks: 4 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Reduce Set Back The Lee Factory crimp die creates a canalure as it creates the crimp. It is very effective in preventing the set back problem.

10-11-2011, 02:53 PM	#1
GIFFROY User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 19 Thanks: 11 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Vihtavuori powder & 30 Luger Hello everybody, I am quite new on this forum. Used to reload for rifles and for FN-Browning High power 9mm and M1910 32ACP. I just acquired a beautyful Model 06-29 Swiss Luger. Does anyone know how to reload .30 Luger with Vihtavuori N 310 and/or N 320 powders? I plan to use Hornady 86 RN (#3100) or 93 FMJ (#1419) grain .308 bullets or H&N 86 grain RN HS copperised lead .309 bullets. Thank you.

10-11-2011, 08:33 PM	#2
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	I dont have any info on using Vithavouri in .30 Luger , but WHERE do you plan on finding the 93gr FMJ bullets? Me and a couple dozen more folks on here would love to know!

10-11-2011, 09:20 PM	#3
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	The Vihtavuori loading manuals show a little data for the 7.65 Par. But, they only show N340. Perhaps an e-mail to Vihtavuori would produce results.

10-12-2011, 03:45 AM	#4
GIFFROY User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 19 Thanks: 11 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Answer to nukem556 : First you have to kow that I live in Belgium (the small european country that is without gouvernment from june 2010). I wrote I plan to reload with 93 gr bullets; I do't have them yet; my intention is to duplicate the factory load. I found mention of a Sako FMJ 93 gr on Vihtavuori Ladedata. Maybe is it imported in the US? Answer to Freischütz : Thank you. Do tou know if this N 340 gives good results? I emailed Vihtavuori and wait for their answer; they are usually very helpful and I think they make a good reseach.

10-13-2011, 02:58 PM	#6
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	Hello - I've never used N340 in the 7.65. I use it in the 7.63 Mauser and have good results. I use it to produce 1250 fps practice loads. I'm impressed by its clean burning. It also meters consistently.

10-17-2011, 05:44 PM	#7
GIFFROY User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 19 Thanks: 11 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Vihtavuori answered to my questions and were again very helpful. They suggest, with a Sierra RN 85 grains (.308) : 2,8 grains N-310, Vo +/- 1100 f/s = starting load 3,5 grains N-310, Vo +/- 1200 f/s) = maximum load or 3,7 grains N-320, Vo +/- 1200 f/s = starting load 4,3 grains N-320, Vo +/- 1300 f/s = maximum load

10-19-2011, 05:26 PM	#8
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	Thanks for posting Vihtavuori's response. I'll put a copy of it in my reloading manual.

10-19-2011, 06:07 PM	#9
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,308 Thanks: 2,737 Thanked 993 Times in 729 Posts	Yes, thank you for the information. I just copied it down to place it in one of my reloading books. I have never used that powder, but have loaded that bullet(#100). Any new information on loading the 30Luger is most appreciated by me.

10-21-2011, 09:36 AM	#10
GIFFROY User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 19 Thanks: 11 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	I will post the results as soon as they exist. Il will only receive the brass in a couple of months. So it is not for tomorrow!

11-01-2011, 10:14 AM	#11
GIFFROY User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 19 Thanks: 11 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	About Vihtavuori powders, I got an information from the german bullets manufacturer H&N who does not recommand N310 for the .30 Luger and prefers the N320.

12-14-2011, 02:39 AM	#12
GIFFROY User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 19 Thanks: 11 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	I have made some experiences with my Swiss Lüger 06/29 chambered in .30 Luger I tried Vectan BA-9 (french powder) and Vihtavuori N-320 pushing H&N RN HS .311 86 grains bullets; primer : Winchester Small Pistol Standard; case : Starline trimmed to 21,5 mm (if necessary); cartridge overall lenght : 29,6 mm. 1. For the BA-9 : 5 cartridges loaded with 4,9 grains of BA-9 gave as Vo : 327, 335, 341, 347 and 326 m/s (mean = 335,3 m/s) 5 cartridges loaded with 5,0 grains of BA-9 gave as Vo : 356, 350, 334, 358 and 354 m/s (mean = 350,4 m/s) Incomplete ejection of empty case for 2 cartridges of the first batch and for one of the second (underligned). No sign of overpressure visible on the primers. The minimum Vo necessary for the operation of the pistol with this bullet seems to be 335 m/s. To have a 100 % functionning of the pistol it is necessary to increase the powder load (5,1 maybe 5,2 grains). Do anyone think that the pressures will remain acceptable? On the web, some reloaders consider 4,9 grains as the maximum, others are going till 5,4 grains. 2. For the N-320 : I tried 3,7; 3,8; 3,9; 4,0; 4,1; 4,3 and 4,3 grains with no sign of overpressure on the primers. I measured the Vo of only one cartridge loaded with 4,0 grains of N-320 and obtained 357 m/s. The german magazine VIZIER SPECIAL N° 48 marz 2008 on "Pistole 08" explains (page N° 81) that for the same bullet (H&N 86 gr), same speed (363 and 365 m/s) and same precision, the N-320 (4,0 gr) gives a much higher pressure than the N-340 (4,6 gr) : 1691 versus 1311 bar. I do not have Vihtavuori N-340 and this powder is rather difficult to find in my country. Is it nevertheless recommended to use 4,0 gr N-320?

12-14-2011, 05:20 PM	#13
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,308 Thanks: 2,737 Thanked 993 Times in 729 Posts	I sure do wish that I could help you out, but I have never used that bullet, or any of those powders. I have been using Alliant Red Dot, and Bullseye powders for my 30Luger reloads. I have to run them very near, or at the max loading to get 100% reliability of my 1920 DWM Luger. I am trying a new bullet(to me). I got them from Western Bullet Company. They advertise it as a 30Luger bullet. It is out of Lyman mold #311227, and is sized to .309 in. It is a LRN, but does not have a cannalure/crimp groove for a roll crimp. I load it as long as I possibly can (1.150 +/- .005 in.). That is just barely above the last grease groove. Then by using a Lee FCD, which is a collet crimp die( bottle neck brass), it will produce a mild crimp into the superior part of the grease groove to help keep from getting bullet set-back when feeding up the feed ramp. I have only fired #25 of these, but the results were excellent in my gun. I ordered 1.5K more of them. I don't know if this info will help anyone, but there is so little info on reloading the 30Luger ammo, that I felt like it might help someone.

12-16-2011, 03:21 AM	#14
GIFFROY User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 19 Thanks: 11 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Rhuff, Thank you for your informations. It is allways interesting to exchange data when the available is few. The Haendler & Natermann (H&N) company makes lead and cupperised handgun and rifle bullets; their website is interesting. The 86 gr Round Nose High Speed .311 is especially made for .30 Luger in cupperised lead. They say that the lead is soft enough to adapt to all diameters and also soft enough to become "cannelured" when a taper crimp is made. With Starline or Winchester brass, I think it is not necessary to crimp; I left 2 dummy cartridges (1 SL and 1 Win) in the magazine and shot 30 rounds without any change in the cartridge overall length.

12-16-2011, 03:47 PM	#15
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,308 Thanks: 2,737 Thanked 993 Times in 729 Posts	Giffroy, Good to hear from you again. I believe that a large majority of the folks on this forum are collectors/buyers/sellers, and not shooters. Of the shooters, not too many of them are reloaders, so they purchase 9mm Lugers, and not 30Luger caliber. The factory ammo(Winchester and Fiocchi) is expensive here in the USA. The original 30Luger ammo, and the current day 30Luger ammo, have a roll crimp into a cannalure to stop set back when the round feed into the chamber. The neck on the brass is so short, that it is difficult to get enough neck tension on the bullet to prevent set back. Loading the .309 lead RN is easier to prevent setback, than when I load the Hornady or Sierra 86gr JSP with a .308 diameter. I plan to add a cannalure to these bullets(I own a cannalure tool) the next time that I load them to see if it will help with set back of the bullet. I have never tried to load .311 diameter bullets.

12-19-2011, 04:50 AM	#17
GIFFROY User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 19 Thanks: 11 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Hello covert and rhuff, Maybe I have not explained clearly enough : I have no problem with the setback of the bullets left in the magazine. Without crimp (or with a very light crimp) the lenght of 2 dummy cartridges remained unchanged during more than 20 shots. I have just the problem to find a powder load giving a reasonable pressure AND strong enough to make the pistol operate. I will try 4,1 or 4,2 grains of N-320 ith my 86 grains bullets. Anyway thank you very much for the help. giffroy

12-19-2011, 03:39 PM	#18
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,308 Thanks: 2,737 Thanked 993 Times in 729 Posts	Giffroy, One would not expect to have set back in the magazine from firing the pistol. If anything, one would expect the bullet to be "pulled" (increase the OAL) from firing as is sometimes seen in high caliber centerfire revolvers, and the locking the cylinder. The main problem with set back in a semi-auto is when the bullet strikes the feed ramp. If it does set back the bullet, and you are near/at max powder charge, then the chamber pressures can go quite high, and cause a problem/kaboom!! If you are near/at max powder load, and not getting reliable toggle function, perhaps you might consider installing a lighter weight recoil spring.....Just a thought.

12-25-2011, 01:18 AM	#19
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	I've never had a P.08 set bullets back into the case. I use cast bullets without crimp grooves and have sized as small as .309". On the other hand, the C96 will set bullets back. When loading 10 rounds I make sure cases are on no more than their third or fourth reloading.

01-17-2012, 07:50 AM	#20
GIFFROY User Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 19 Thanks: 11 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	I got a good load with : bullet : H&N (copperised lead) 86 grains HS RN .311 primer : Winchester Small Pistol Standard case : Winchester trimmed to 21,5 mm powder : (French) Vectan BA-9 : 5,1 grains cartridge length : 29,6 mm I measured the velocity of ten rounds and obtained the following results : Mean : μ = 363,3 m/s Maximum dispersion : dm = 18 m/s Standard deviation σ = 5,1 m/s No signs of overpressure and good functioning of the weapon.