Need help with Luger purchase...

vernonsmith · 09-02-2011, 02:13 AM

Need help ASAP before this one went out the door. Do all the expert think that this Luger has got the original finish?

It just look too good to me plus it looks like it is in 'two tone', some sort of browny and blue finish I really can't tell so need all the experts' opinions here before I rush out to get it!!!

alanint · 09-02-2011, 03:50 AM

I've seen this "plum" color on BYFs before. The finish looks original to me. No telltale buffing or other red flags...

Edward Tinker · 09-02-2011, 04:07 AM

It looks ok to me too, but unless there is a 'need' to rush, there is no rush.

Not unless the price is a steal and it'll disappear....

Vernon, your user name is your name, yet your profile has V and s and no location....

Ed

vernonsmith · 09-02-2011, 06:49 AM

Could this byf 42 a 'black widow'? It seems to has all the characterics of a 'black widow'?

I can feel that lots of people dun like this type of question (everything to do with black widow) to be asked and I know the story why 'black widow' is created. Just interested to know this is one of them.

lfid · 09-04-2011, 01:32 AM

picture 6 , butt of frame in front of the magazine well , looks kind of like reblue over some defect

perhaps just that area has been touched with reblue of some sort

side plate also looks somewhat reblued over two small dents to me also

plum receiver looks ok original

grips and mag look ok

plum sideplate would be unusual - in one picture sideplate looks kind of plum also

yes , seems like a real "black widow"

good luck
Bill

vernonsmith · 09-04-2011, 08:46 AM

Thanks for the input. I have more pics which were loaded onto Jan Still's forums on page two of the same titled thread:

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...chase.../page2

Mike Z · 09-04-2011, 10:34 AM

Personally I don't like the looks of the side plate
Mike Z.

sheepherder · 09-04-2011, 02:10 PM

I've seen the 'plum' coloring on Lahti's...Specifically, the hardened parts...Heat treating seems to affect bluing; for what reason, I do not know...

Edward Tinker · 09-04-2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

I've seen the 'plum' coloring on Lahti's...Specifically, the hardened parts...Heat treating seems to affect bluing; for what reason, I do not know...

Ted said it has to do with the hardness of the metal. So, for receivers like this, you see P38's and some lugers in this time period, so it is either the hardness was changed or the bluing chemicals or a mixture of the two.

I don't know, just know it is a common theme.

To the original poster, as you can see, I flip-flopped on my answer, and that is because it is hard to judge from pictures, and when doubt is raised by others, we all look for those tell-tale signs.

My mentor Bill Munis would bring out 5 lugers and ask me, which are restored or reblued?

i would point out two and he would say, none of them. and then TRY and teach me why each was each. He died several years ago and I miss his training that he gave me.

Ed

Norme · 09-04-2011, 03:47 PM

Heat treating definitely affects bluing, and not just on salt blued guns, but on earlier rust blued ones as well. Here's the side-plate on a 1916 DWM. Regards, Norm

mrerick · 09-05-2011, 10:57 AM

Vernon,

The "black widow" term was purely a marketing effort by Ralph Shattuck (now deceased) used it to sell what were at the time the less attractive Lugers with plastic grips and magazine bases.

In the 1941 / 1942 timeframe, the German arms industry had shifted to composite and plastic / bakelite parts where possible.

You can authenticate the grips by photographing their inside surfaces and posting here. If you remove them be very careful not to chip the left one near the safety and the right one where it slides into the receiver at the top.

I believe that the plum color involved both the alloy content of the steel, the chemical mix of the bluing salts and the temperature of the hot bluing baths. Some people like the color, others consider it evidence of sloppy process control during manufacture.

I have a beautiful M1 Carbine that saw service in Austria after WW-II. It had been re-blued by them with the trigger group turned to a beautiful deep plum color...

Marc

09-02-2011, 02:13 AM	#1
vernonsmith User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 80 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Need help with Luger purchase... Need help ASAP before this one went out the door. Do all the expert think that this Luger has got the original finish? It just look too good to me plus it looks like it is in 'two tone', some sort of browny and blue finish I really can't tell so need all the experts' opinions here before I rush out to get it!!! Last edited by vernonsmith; 10-05-2011 at 08:17 AM.

09-02-2011, 04:07 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	It looks ok to me too, but unless there is a 'need' to rush, there is no rush. Not unless the price is a steal and it'll disappear.... Vernon, your user name is your name, yet your profile has V and s and no location.... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-02-2011, 06:49 AM	#4
vernonsmith User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 80 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Could this byf 42 a 'black widow'? It seems to has all the characterics of a 'black widow'? I can feel that lots of people dun like this type of question (everything to do with black widow) to be asked and I know the story why 'black widow' is created. Just interested to know this is one of them. Last edited by vernonsmith; 09-03-2011 at 08:50 AM.

09-04-2011, 02:10 PM	#8
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	I've seen the 'plum' coloring on Lahti's...Specifically, the hardened parts...Heat treating seems to affect bluing; for what reason, I do not know... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

09-04-2011, 03:47 PM	#10
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Heat treating definitely affects bluing, and not just on salt blued guns, but on earlier rust blued ones as well. Here's the side-plate on a 1916 DWM. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

09-02-2011, 03:50 AM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I've seen this "plum" color on BYFs before. The finish looks original to me. No telltale buffing or other red flags...

09-04-2011, 01:32 AM	#5
lfid Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wichita, KS USA Posts: 453 Thanks: 573 Thanked 96 Times in 53 Posts	picture 6 , butt of frame in front of the magazine well , looks kind of like reblue over some defect perhaps just that area has been touched with reblue of some sort side plate also looks somewhat reblued over two small dents to me also plum receiver looks ok original grips and mag look ok plum sideplate would be unusual - in one picture sideplate looks kind of plum also yes , seems like a real "black widow" good luck Bill

09-04-2011, 08:46 AM	#6
vernonsmith User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 80 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks for the input. I have more pics which were loaded onto Jan Still's forums on page two of the same titled thread: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...chase.../page2

09-04-2011, 10:34 AM	#7
Mike Z User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 180 Thanks: 51 Thanked 79 Times in 39 Posts	Personally I don't like the looks of the side plate Mike Z.

09-05-2011, 10:57 AM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,901 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Vernon, The "black widow" term was purely a marketing effort by Ralph Shattuck (now deceased) used it to sell what were at the time the less attractive Lugers with plastic grips and magazine bases. In the 1941 / 1942 timeframe, the German arms industry had shifted to composite and plastic / bakelite parts where possible. You can authenticate the grips by photographing their inside surfaces and posting here. If you remove them be very careful not to chip the left one near the safety and the right one where it slides into the receiver at the top. I believe that the plum color involved both the alloy content of the steel, the chemical mix of the bluing salts and the temperature of the hot bluing baths. Some people like the color, others consider it evidence of sloppy process control during manufacture. I have a beautiful M1 Carbine that saw service in Austria after WW-II. It had been re-blued by them with the trigger group turned to a beautiful deep plum color... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.