Admiration vs. Glorification

pardon me if i'm overstepping my bounderies here with all of the alumni collectors, but i felt a need to speak from the view of the freshman collector.


the ongoing discussion about mr. x and GA is quite interesting from both sides. from mr. x's position and background i can see where he's coming from and even understand how one might feel from that side. but his record and history of gun selling on GA totally wipe out whatever footing he had. he should either stop selling them or be quite on the issue. as for his guns being evil idea(only nazi guns?), well that's kinda batty. they are nothing more than cold steel and objects of destruction, whether it be for food, self defense or agression. i think we can all agree they were'nt created for target practice. as it's been said too many times before - people kill, yada, yada, yada.


as for the patrons of this forum, we also seem to want to look the other way at times and not admit to the facination some of us have with the third riech. admiration for the gun itself, the design, the machinery, the beauty is something i think we can all relate to and appreaciate. but when we start displaying the guns with the nazi flags and other nazi paraphanalia we're going in another direction with this and one that does concern some people. i think we all need to acknowledge that there is a strange facination with nazi germany and the luger connection. just say it. it's alright. but in our facination, we need to be careful to keep it there. displaying our lugers with all the pomp and circumstance of the third riech can start to be propaganda and a misinterpreted endorsment of the beliefs and practices of the nazi's. it becomes almost a glorifacation to the novice that comes here. and while it's meant to be one of the gun, it could be seen as that of it's political affiliation.


the luger was a great work of art way before "little corporal" spread his nightmare around the world and is just a small part of it's history. but as long as we continue to display the luger with the symbols of nazi germany there will be people like mr. x making comments like that. the showing of the luger with the swastika is a political statment, whether it is meant to be or not. and it becomes not only a glorification of the gun itself but of the third riech also - whether we like it or not. can we seperate them? i don't know? that's kinda like the seperating the south from the confederacy. but we can be concious of it and how the outside world sees it and try to keep it in check. public relations wise, the luger has 2 major things going against it - one, it's a gun and second, it's a nazi gun. but if the volkswagen can overcome it's heritage perhaps the luger can too.


i hope i haven't offended anyone here. you have all been a great help to me. but i think we do need to be aware of other perceptions about the things we enjoy and not get so caught up in our "hobbies" that we lose focus of what's really important in the world and our communities.


tom

[schwob]

The Luger is NOT A NAZI GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was prsent and operational l-o-n-g before the word NAZI made world headlines. Isn't about time we laid this topic to rest?

i believe that's what i said...but in the world we live in perception is reality and posting photo's of lugers and swastika's only solidifies the bond between the luger and the third riech. i'd suggest that when posting photo's of your lugers try not to use nazi icons to embelish it's mystique.

[bill m]

Hi Tom,

I personally find your comments ridicious. You can make an issue out of just about anything, but to suggest that any Luger collector, by collecting Third Reich stuff, is agreeing with the views of the Nazi's and is glorifing the Nazi period is just down right stupid!


This is a part of our history, and world history. To even suggest that by owning a weapon with the Eagle Swastika on it is an admission of support for the Nazi view point is just a mute point to start an arguement. One can collect Nazi items as well as Japanese items and despise what they did and stood for, but still admire the weapon itself and the history involved with it. To own a Nazi flag does not make me a Nazi lover. To own an SS dagger does not make me a SS lover. Most collectors do this as a hobby and try to acquire the best example available,(that is called pride) not because they agree with what the Nazi flag stood for, but because it is a part of the history they are collecting. If anything, it reminds most collectors of just how awful this period of time was. But it happened and to ignore it and pretend it did not happen and throw away everything associatied with it, as well as condemn anyone who speaks of it, it totally wrong also. There are two sides to this issue also and you must be able to look at a collection or display and admire it for the effort that it took to put it together and the quality of the items, and not instantly associate the owner to being a Nazi, as that is really narrow minded.


My suggestion to all that want to associate a WWII Third Reich collector with being a Nazi and ect., is to go collect something else besides Lugers. As far as I'm concerned, you should be smart enough to tell the difference between what is history, what is being collected for a hobby and for future fiancial gain, and what is being done for pure propaganda, hate, and attention. I'm not ashamed to collect Third Reich Lugers, have a Nazi battle flag, an SS dagger, and try to understand the history behind each item. Glorification -- not at all, but I do have pride in the quality of items that I collect. Sorry, but I think you're way off base here with your post!

i respect everyones opinion here, but i think some people are too close to the subject matter to be objective on the issue.


once again, take a step backwards and listen and think about what i'm saying. that is...that the perception of people outside of the forum already see the luger as an icon of the german military with ties to the third reich and when we post pictures of the luger drapped in the swastika we propagate the myth and glorify it's heritage whether it is correct or not. THUS perception is that it is a nazi gun and whether you like it or not some misguided fools transfer the glorifacation of the pistol to the third reich.


hey, don't get me wrong, i myself have a strange facination with it too but there is a fine line between displaying your luger on a shelf and displaying that luger drapped in the swastika, iron cross's and ss badges. it then becomes a shrine open to interpretation. think about it. i agree the luger is not a nazi gun, it is a gun of german origin with a germanic past, both good and bad. all historic and interesting, but be aware of the power of pictures and images...hitler was.

[Thor]

I Agree with Bill. I would soon talk Lugers as the Peripheral stuff. How much sense does it make for a collector of Walther pistols to FINALLY find a rare Party Eagle PPK, then he has to cover the Large German Eagle over Swastika on the gun or the holster to post a picture??? I dont think so!! ~Thor~

[Johnny Peppers]

Very good post Bill M. We now live in a society that believes in political correctness above all other attributes. We just got rid of a President that had absolutely no morals or scruples, but was the high leader of the politically correct. Is this what we are striving for? I will not hide my hobby in the closet.

[Matt]

This is why I have "denazified" all of my Third Reich memorabilia. On my Lugers and other "Nazi" guns, I filed off the swastikas and touched up the metal with cold blue. I even scraped the swastika stampings off the backs of my holsters. I also filed off the swastika on my Wehrmacht "Gott Mit Uns" belt buckle. As far as my Nazi Kreigsflagge, I just cut the swastika out. I now no longer have to worry about someone mistakenly believing I am a Nazi because I collect WWII memorabilia. Now, my artifacts are politically correct.

Funny though, for the last two years I have taken a bunch of WW II items to a local elementary school for show and tell. These included items (before I denazified them) that had swastikas. None of the teachers or students seemed to think I was a Nazi for having these items.

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

NOR WILL I!!

[Jesse]

I'm with Bill and Ted on this one, I have a few points that I would like to make. There are MANY types of Lugers from MANY time periods. If a Luger was made for the service of the Third Reich, and proof marked as such, no matter how bad you hate the fact IT served as a "Nazi Luger" for the Reich. That same Luger might have went on to be a Vopo sidearm, a Soviet block reserve, war trophy, or a Beautiful work of art shooter by Ted. Still NOTHING can take that history away from it. We put the flags and other memorabilia with our Lugers because it's all part of that era in history. Have you ever been to a museum? They do the same thing with all of their exhibits to give you a glimpse of what was a common sight of that era. As for the Nazi symbols that got mentioned, the Iron Cross came way before the Nazis and so did the Swastika but the same rule go for them as for the Luger. I do not support the Third Reich and what they did, at the same time I don't support tactics, actions and intent of Imperil German, Imperil Japanese, U.S.S.R., etc . Yet most of us has Firearm and/or other memorabilia from those countries trough out their history not b/c we want to glorify them but because they are reminders of our history. History is full of lessons, it's up to us to remember them.


Jesse

Somehow time and distance has caused us to forget the concept of war trophies. It was a popular hobby among US GI's to collect a luger--not because of a secret adoration of Adolph and crew--but they are cool souveniers (sp?). Nazis strutting around saluting each other in fancy uniforms were entertainment worthy of ridicule, not admiration. What German elites admired in daggers and fancy accoutrements, we picked up like trading cards. Conquering soldiers accumulated these trophies because of triumph over the bad guys. A collected trophy is a symbol of victory over the bad guys and a curiosity that reminds one of historic events and provides tangible evidence of those events. They are not symbols of admiration to me but the symbols of victory and curious novelties.


The uniforms, weapons, flags, and symbols of the 3rd Reich tell the story of vanity, culture of personality, and self-aggrandizement. Goering's hobby of uniform design is a great example. Hitler's photos of himself practicing expressions for speeches is another. Contrast that with The US GI uniform and style--practical and effective--get it done, do the right thing, pull together, work hard-play hard. Not surprising the losers had fancy stuff and curiosities aplenty--entertaining for collectors but in no way supportive or admiring the fools who adopted them as a system and culture--exactly the opposite. What the Nazis wasted on decoration and fanciness, we poured into victory.


dm

Why don't we just drop the subject before it gets out of hand. we are heading for another stainless steel type argument which is going to cause someone heartaches. This is a forum to discuss Luger colecting and History and not Politics, save that for another forum. Just my persoal opinion but I think we have seen people leave the forum over some of the arguments that get pretty nasty at times.

[Ron Wood]

Here we go again. I know that all of you guys have worked really hard on putting together collections that represent a segment of history - but that is all it is - HISTORY. Your collections of memorabilia associated with any phase of Luger history does not reflect your agreement with the ideology of that phase (and if it does, keep it to yourself - we don't give a rat's rump). I have really enjoyed recently joining in on the Luger Forum's activities, because it provides a wonderful medium for exchanging information and questions about the hobby of collecting Lugers. Lugers have been my passion for over 45 years now, and it is great to have a chance to continue my learning, and with a little luck, maybe sharing a little of what I have learned. I dropped out of NAPCA for several years because of the petty comments that abounded (I have rejoined because they cleaned up their act). I would be heartsick if it happened again with Luger Forum. IMHO (picked that one up from the Forum) if the terms NAZI and Jew never appeared again together in the same message on the Forum, it would be too soon. The terms "Third Reich" and "NAZI" deserve a place in Luger collecting, but hopefully only conjunction with a time period of Luger development and usage, and the corresponding memorabilia associated to validate/verify markings and production. I have absolutely no problem with collecting articles of any historical period, but this is a LUGER focus group. Please, I beg of you, keep it that way. Thanks. Have to go now, I have developed a nose bleed from the altitude of my soap box.

[Steve]

god bless america and the freedom of speech! i understand we are all very passionate about our collections and my intentions were not to accuse all of you of being nazi lovers/sympathisers. that is ridiculous. all i attempted to do was explain the otherside of the coin and how people outside the realm of luger collectors see things at times. that's ALL. alot of people seeing this stuff don't have the fortune to have each of you explain the meaning and symbolism of your collections. and if you want people like mr. x to stop thinking the way he does about "nazi guns" then maybe we should think about how "WE" portray our lugers to the public. i'm sorry i ever brought it up, but whether or not we want to address it or not the problem will persist as long as some continue to bath the luger in third reich icons and symbols.


end of story, it is done. finished. let's move on.

[Hugh]

My 2 pfennings worth




http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/battleflag-w.jpg

[Jim Van Eldik]

So "perception is reality" right?? I am to alter my conduct so that it caters to your mental fabrications of the nature of the world. Thank you no.

[Dok]

Now instead of everybody fighting over the portrayal of Nazi symbols, we can all be fighting over the portrayal of the Confederate symbol. Then some idiot will wanna join the two together and all of a sudden all Luger collectors will be nazi loving skinheads!!!


Nice one Hugh!!!

[Dok]

when we were all discussing whether or not we could see the face of John D's ex-wife in the receiver of a reworked Luger.


Let's go back to those halcyon days!!!!


Dok

[G.T.]

It should be skinny little knotheads!!! til...lat....G.T.