EBAY LUGER STOCK-GALE MORGAN'S COMMENT

Orv Reichert · 01-30-2002, 01:57 PM

Gale Morgan worked on one of these stocks [not the same one pictured]....I asked several questions and the following are his answers...[cited here with his permission]

=================================

I had to replace the wooden "endpiece" shown in one of the #7 pics (7d, I think)...The theory is that it was made for use in a plane (the "dovetail "clip" on the back attached to the side of the plane). The interesting thing (to me) is that it "adjusts" for all the std. bbl lengths.

A guess: WWII time, in Germany, by a "Big" metal fabricator (the pieces of that thing are thick, and punched with a VERY large/heavy press. An airplane mfg. or a"sheet metal fabricator" (like one of the machine gun manufacturers..grease gun style)...that's the best I can do....oh, as I said, it accommodates Mil., Navy, and Arty bbl lengths!!!!

The one I worked on couldn't possibly been a "prototype" because it would

have cost a zillion dollars to set up the presses to punch out the parts!!

There was nothing on that thing that looked like a "one (or two)-of-a kind"

prototype. The quality was exceptional, and the "attention to detail" was

also exceptional.

Another part of the "story" that sounds a little weird is

the reference to BATF...to my knowledge, there is nothing in BATF

regulations that prevents a company from making (and selling) such a stock.

They, of course, would have to have a disclaimer saying that it was illegal

to attach it to a "real" Luger.

By the way, one other point about the quality: It was MUCH BETTER than Chinese quality (like AK47 junk). Looked like "good" Japanese quality (like they "apply" when they are competing for a government bid)....

John Sabato · 01-30-2002, 03:28 PM

and I totally agree that there are no regulations that prohibit the manufacture of ANY type of handgun stock by BATF. It is the possession of both a stock and Luger with a stock lug WITHOUT an appropriate NFA tax stamp ($200.00) where the criminal action takes place. Any exceptions to this rule are published on the ATF Curio & Relic (C&R) list that is available on their website.

You could personally legally own a whole garage full of Luger stocks if you don't own a Luger with a Stock Lug. No taxes or registration is required.

And yes, it would be wise of anyone selling a Luger stock to stipulate the conditions for legal use of it, but there really isn't any prohibition on selling them without doing this either... Caveat Emptor! (Buyer Beware)

The caution for Members and Lurkers of the Lugerforum is Know what is legal before you do it! and don't assume anything where ignorance of the law could lose you your right to own a firearm FOREVER because of an unintentional violation.

Thanks again,

John Sabato

01-31-2002, 01:26 AM

If true that the stock was designed for aircraft use, then WWI is a more likely time period. There was about a year of combat before Anthony Fokker designed machine gun synchronising gear for the Fokker E.1 Eindekker (first successfully used 1 Aug 15) when the Germans were scrambling to find something to shoot from aircraft. Mauser Broomhandles were tried and the Mondragon rifles (FSK15 Flieger Selbstlade Karabiner Modell 1915) were tried. Maybe someone tooled up to make a Luger aircraft stock, the need for which disappeared almost overnight. Perhaps very few were actually manufactured.

Orv Reichert · 02-01-2002, 12:56 AM

In WW-2 they used several types of weapons as Luftwaffe 'survival' guns...the Krieghoff drilling being one? The concept was to have a gun in the plane in case you were forced down and had to live off the country.

We have also made several...one called the M-4 if my tired old memory serves me?

I would bow to Gale's expertise as to the time of manufacture as he knows a hell of a lot more about such stuff than I!

Orv

02-01-2002, 02:31 AM

Since Gale calls his WWII dating a "guess" and since the stock was made to fit 4, 6, and 8 inch barrels, it seems that WWI dating is not outside the realm of posibility. At least there was good reason in WWI to tool up and not produce, where the reason to do so in WWII is lacking. Of course with Lugers anything is possible.

John Sabato · 02-01-2002, 10:04 AM

extensively in the construction, that this could not be from before WW2. Perhaps one of the other engineers on the forum that knows a little more about engineering history could comment on when spot-welding became a common practice in manufacturing.

Until that time, I still put my money on Post WW2...

regards,

John

02-03-2002, 01:01 AM

If I remember Spot Welding was available in the early to mid 30's, However the machines were very big, clumsy, slow, and erratic in quality as well as being very expensive to buy and / or operate.

The beginning of WW-II began a need for R & D, and by the end of WW-II they were beginning to show evidence of wide spread usefulness.

I would guess that this object was produced Post WW-II.

As I remember!

ViggoG

02-03-2002, 01:40 AM

Judging by the quality of the welds and general design appearance, I'm forced to Change My Earlier Opinion to a WW-II product.

Spot welds show a lack of consistent pressure and electrical discharge control, resulting in shallow and deep spots with poor heat distribution over the spot area, and considerable spatter on some welds and some heat warping around welds.

In general the design speaks to me of Typical German WW-II Technology.

My Apology for an earlier Wrong Opinion!

ViggoG

01-30-2002, 01:57 PM	#1
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	EBAY LUGER STOCK-GALE MORGAN'S COMMENT Gale Morgan worked on one of these stocks [not the same one pictured]....I asked several questions and the following are his answers...[cited here with his permission] ================================= I had to replace the wooden "endpiece" shown in one of the #7 pics (7d, I think)...The theory is that it was made for use in a plane (the "dovetail "clip" on the back attached to the side of the plane). The interesting thing (to me) is that it "adjusts" for all the std. bbl lengths. A guess: WWII time, in Germany, by a "Big" metal fabricator (the pieces of that thing are thick, and punched with a VERY large/heavy press. An airplane mfg. or a"sheet metal fabricator" (like one of the machine gun manufacturers..grease gun style)...that's the best I can do....oh, as I said, it accommodates Mil., Navy, and Arty bbl lengths!!!! The one I worked on couldn't possibly been a "prototype" because it would have cost a zillion dollars to set up the presses to punch out the parts!! There was nothing on that thing that looked like a "one (or two)-of-a kind" prototype. The quality was exceptional, and the "attention to detail" was also exceptional. Another part of the "story" that sounds a little weird is the reference to BATF...to my knowledge, there is nothing in BATF regulations that prevents a company from making (and selling) such a stock. They, of course, would have to have a disclaimer saying that it was illegal to attach it to a "real" Luger. By the way, one other point about the quality: It was MUCH BETTER than Chinese quality (like AK47 junk). Looked like "good" Japanese quality (like they "apply" when they are competing for a government bid)....

01-30-2002, 03:28 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Thanks Orv for passing this info on to the forum... and I totally agree that there are no regulations that prohibit the manufacture of ANY type of handgun stock by BATF. It is the possession of both a stock and Luger with a stock lug WITHOUT an appropriate NFA tax stamp ($200.00) where the criminal action takes place. Any exceptions to this rule are published on the ATF Curio & Relic (C&R) list that is available on their website. You could personally legally own a whole garage full of Luger stocks if you don't own a Luger with a Stock Lug. No taxes or registration is required. And yes, it would be wise of anyone selling a Luger stock to stipulate the conditions for legal use of it, but there really isn't any prohibition on selling them without doing this either... Caveat Emptor! (Buyer Beware) The caution for Members and Lurkers of the Lugerforum is Know what is legal before you do it! and don't assume anything where ignorance of the law could lose you your right to own a firearm FOREVER because of an unintentional violation. Thanks again, John Sabato

01-31-2002, 01:26 AM	#3
Bill Utterback Guest Posts: n/a	Re: EBAY LUGER STOCK-GALE MORGAN'S COMMENT If true that the stock was designed for aircraft use, then WWI is a more likely time period. There was about a year of combat before Anthony Fokker designed machine gun synchronising gear for the Fokker E.1 Eindekker (first successfully used 1 Aug 15) when the Germans were scrambling to find something to shoot from aircraft. Mauser Broomhandles were tried and the Mondragon rifles (FSK15 Flieger Selbstlade Karabiner Modell 1915) were tried. Maybe someone tooled up to make a Luger aircraft stock, the need for which disappeared almost overnight. Perhaps very few were actually manufactured.

02-01-2002, 12:56 AM	#4
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	LUGER STOCK In WW-2 they used several types of weapons as Luftwaffe 'survival' guns...the Krieghoff drilling being one? The concept was to have a gun in the plane in case you were forced down and had to live off the country. We have also made several...one called the M-4 if my tired old memory serves me? I would bow to Gale's expertise as to the time of manufacture as he knows a hell of a lot more about such stuff than I! Orv

02-01-2002, 02:31 AM	#5
Bill Utterback Guest Posts: n/a	Re: LUGER STOCK Since Gale calls his WWII dating a "guess" and since the stock was made to fit 4, 6, and 8 inch barrels, it seems that WWI dating is not outside the realm of posibility. At least there was good reason in WWI to tool up and not produce, where the reason to do so in WWII is lacking. Of course with Lugers anything is possible.

02-01-2002, 10:04 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I still think that because spot-welding is used extensively in the construction, that this could not be from before WW2. Perhaps one of the other engineers on the forum that knows a little more about engineering history could comment on when spot-welding became a common practice in manufacturing. Until that time, I still put my money on Post WW2... regards, John

02-03-2002, 01:01 AM	#7
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Available in early to mid 30's If I remember Spot Welding was available in the early to mid 30's, However the machines were very big, clumsy, slow, and erratic in quality as well as being very expensive to buy and / or operate. The beginning of WW-II began a need for R & D, and by the end of WW-II they were beginning to show evidence of wide spread usefulness. I would guess that this object was produced Post WW-II. As I remember! ViggoG

02-03-2002, 01:40 AM	#8
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: After a closer look ! Judging by the quality of the welds and general design appearance, I'm forced to Change My Earlier Opinion to a WW-II product. Spot welds show a lack of consistent pressure and electrical discharge control, resulting in shallow and deep spots with poor heat distribution over the spot area, and considerable spatter on some welds and some heat warping around welds. In general the design speaks to me of Typical German WW-II Technology. My Apology for an earlier Wrong Opinion! ViggoG