1912 Erfurt Luger

apachedawg · 08-24-2010, 01:41 PM

I am new to Lugers and this forum and thought I'd show off a recent purchase. I found this at my local gun shop. The finish is very good, looks original with some light flecking on the barrel, some wear on the high spot on the trigger plate and the thumb disk on the take down lever is missing. It has a 3 digit Serial Number, X61 (X is a number). All the external parts are numbered 61 though the mag doen't match and appears to be from WW2 (Waffenmark with a 37). The markings are sharp. The grips show a little wear on the right side and are very dark. The barrel is mirror bright with sharp lands and grooves. It picked it up for $585 OTD. There are proof marks all over it that look like stylized letters with a crown over them. The forward mark on the right side is what looks like an eagle but not the usual Wiemer Eagle. It is also on the barrel shank.

Now a couple of questions, did I do OK? I think so. What is this eagle proof mark, Austrian? Should I replace or repair the take down lever even though it functions fine? What is a good way to clean the grips without damaging them?

Here are some pictures.

Edward Tinker · 08-24-2010, 01:52 PM

Some would call it a shooter because of the broken take down. Personally, a 1912 in nice condition is nothing to frown on.

These can be fixed using a donor take down, it can be seen from the rear but this way you keep the original take down.

As is, you did good on the price, I think well done.

Welcome to the forum. It is preferred if you post photos here as many times they get deleted from photobucket.

Ed

Ron Wood · 08-24-2010, 01:56 PM

Howard Collins ("policeluger" on this forum) can repair that takedown lever. His work is unbelieveable.
I would say you did very well for $585!

Norme · 08-24-2010, 02:22 PM

Hi Dave, Welcome to the forum. Ed and Ron are right, you did well. However, this gun looks refinished to me. The hold open pins on retrofitted, unrefinished guns, should be "in the white" (see photo). The good news is, you are now free to shoot the hell out of it! Regards, Norm

Ron Wood · 08-24-2010, 03:07 PM

At the risk of disagreeing with a great guy like Norme, I am pretty sure that the gun has not been refinished. There is a halo around the bore gauge and I think around the barrel serial number (although it is difficult to tell with that silly black dot), and it has a pronounced "toggle slap" at the rear of the frame. I think that the apparent lack of "in the white" appearance of the holdopen pin is the result of age darkening since the contour of the frame and the installation "proof" are so sharp.

At any rate, original or possibly refinished long ago, it is a nice gun and not "just a shooter".

newluger · 08-24-2010, 03:08 PM

Welcome to the Forum. You did allright. I'm sure you have more than $585 worth of parts, if you were to later part it out. In any event, it looks like you've got yourself a good shooter.

Newluger

marshombre · 10-02-2010, 12:17 AM

WTH is this mania for obliterating serial numbers in photos? Does the firearm have a less than kosher pedigree? That is, did you steal it? If not, why omit the number?

Edward Tinker · 10-02-2010, 05:02 AM

First, I agree with you, but maybe say it a bit nicer? We 'try" to be civil and nice to each other on the forum, although I am not always that way myself

This is thought of by many people as keeping the numbers secret a "security" measure, for the following reasons:

1. Some one will see a luger and claim that it was theirs years ago, by hiding the serial number, no one can claim this. I have never heard of this actually happening, although I am sure it has; although I am inclined to believe that it is more of an urban myth. That said, I sold a luger to a gentleman in Calf and when he went to register it, it came up as a hit of a stolen weapon. The new owner contacted me, and I contacted the officer in charge of the investigation, indicating that the sn by itself had to be combined with the year, caliber, toggle markings and if there is a suffix, the suffix. The gun was allowed to be registered...

2. Folks worry about other people knowing the sn of their guns. Unsure why

3. They have seen other collectors do it for years, so they do it.

Ed

Mauser720 · 10-02-2010, 11:07 AM

apachedawg -

Yes, you did very well considering what you paid for it.

You can see there is no agreement on whether your pistol has been refinished. On the underside of the barrel, back by the receiver, you will see the serial number. And then below that you will see the number "8,82" which is the distance in millimeters between the lands in the rifling inside the barrel. This barrel gauge measurement is always more lightly struck than the serial number, and it is one of the first casualties when a gun has been refinished. In your example, it looks sharp and it also has the "halo" around it. So this is some evidence to consider too.

Another casualty on Erfurt Lugers which have been refinished is the proof mark on the trigger plate/side plate. This one looks fine to me.

The color of the blue job on this one looks good too, in my opinion.

So I guess I tend more toward thinking this is the original finish too. I wonder if your hold open pin might just be discolored rather than refinished?

You asked about the Eagle proof on the right side of the receiver possibly indicating some relationship to Austria? The answer is no, this is just an ordinary Erfurt proofmark which they always used in that spot.

You also asked about repairing or replacing the take down lever. I would recommend getting the existing lever repaired as suggested above. Your existing part, although broken, is serially numbered to match the rest of the gun, and it also has the Erfurt proofmark. So in my opinion, you should keep that lever and have it repaired by an expert as Mr. Wood has suggested.

You also asked about cleaning the grips? In this case, I think I would not recommend cleaning the grips. You run the risk of ruining them. You have a genuine World War One Imperial German Luger. If you clean them, you run the risk of them looking like they do not actually belong to the gun any more. You also run the risk of breaking them, especially the left grip immediately under the safety lever. This area was one of the weak spots in the design, and you will see a lot of left Luger grip panels with a chip out at the point under the safety lever. Collectors refer to this as the "million dollar chip."

However, if you want to take the risk, there is information on this Forum about how to clean the grips, etc. Look on the left side of the home page, and you will see a column of various headings. Click on "General Information" and there is a good article on how to clean grips, etc.

Please use extreme caution when you take the grips off. Of course you want to make certain the gun is not loaded first. Then remove the magazine. Then unscrew each grip screw only one turn. Then insert your index finger inside the magazine well, and gently press outward on the right grip. When it separates from the frame, the only slightly loosened grip screw will keep it from moving out too far in the wrong direction. So the partially loosened grip screw is a precaution when you initially remove the grip. Then loosen the screw the rest of the way, and lift the grip slightly down and away from the grip frame.

You use this same procedure on the left grip. Loosen the grip screw only one turn. Put your index finger inside the magazine well, and press out gently, etc. When it comes loose from the frame, you may then remove the grip screw. The trick when removing the grip is to not let the safety lever break a chip out of the top of the grip.

Gently pull the grip slightly downward, and slightly away from the grip frame to avoid any stress on the top of the grip which is under the safety lever.

You will probably want to give the gun a good oiling anyway, but avoid getting any oil on the wooden grips.

Thank you for sharing, and congratulations on acquiring such a reasonably priced example of a very nice historical piece!

sheepherder · 10-02-2010, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mauser720

You can see there is no agreement on whether your pistol has been refinished. On the underside of the barrel, back by the receiver, you will see the serial number. And then below that you will see the number "8,82" which is the distance in millimeters between the lands in the rifling inside the barrel. This barrel gauge measurement is always more lightly struck than the serial number, and it is one of the first casualties when a gun has been refinished. In your example, it looks sharp and it also has the "halo" around it. So this is some evidence to consider too.

Another casualty on Erfurt Lugers which have been refinished is the proof mark on the trigger plate/side plate. This one looks fine to me.

All true only if the refinishing included buffing. If the pistol is just stripped and then dipped without buffing, the marks will remain clear.

Another tipoff to buffing is rounding of sharp edges, particularly on the toggle edges (where the maker logo is) and the axle pivot hole. Also the frame ears; for some reason, buffers love to smooth out the tool marks here...

I would be suspicious of the number of straight scratches, possibly under the blueing...indicating sanding...No Luger should have sanding scratches...(right side of frame under rail; rear of frame under ears)...just mill cutter marks...

alanint · 10-02-2010, 01:46 PM

This gun has not been refinished. Parts in the white WILL discolor over time and are not a good indicator of a reblue job.

Giuliano · 10-02-2010, 04:13 PM

Yes, even I think the gun is not finished.
Very fine and the price is very, very good!!
Saluti
Giuliano

George Anderson · 10-02-2010, 05:57 PM

In my opinion this pistol has not been refinished.

FNorm · 10-02-2010, 07:27 PM

You did real good first time outta the chute. Welcome to the addiction!

FN

Thor · 10-09-2010, 05:31 PM

Looks original to me

Edward Tinker · 10-10-2010, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

All true only if the refinishing included buffing. If the pistol is just stripped and then dipped without buffing, the marks will remain clear.

...

Now, if this is some kind of coating or a cold bluing, but to look like real bluing, it requires rusting, carding, rusting, card and each time you card, a little metal comes off?

Am I wrong in this assumption?

Ed

deepdarkwoodsman · 10-10-2010, 08:43 PM

It seems as though every luger has someone who believes it to be a refinished gun. I have seen re-finished lugers and know the usual tells that indicate a re-finish. I strongly believe the Erfurt in question to be original.

But, is there really any way to know for sure?

Thanks.

Doug

Lugerdoc · 10-11-2010, 12:38 PM

Also looks original to me. With your TD lever "Collins repaired" and a nice orig double marked Erfurt wood bottom mag, assuming that the grips have the matching serials inside, it could be worth up to twice what you paid, when you sell also include the sales price of the WW2 mag. TH

whcoyote · 10-11-2010, 02:27 PM

I agree with Ron Wood- I don't think the pistol has been refinished. I'm looking at the halo around the bore gage, the hold-open pin (just aged) and the end mill marks left inside the frame "ears". These are all good indicators.
Concerning the broken take-down lever - if it were my pistol I would leave it alone and begin a search for an Erfurt replacement with matching number (Tom Heller in the above post sells Luger parts - also Phil Siacaccio in Afton, VA - sorry, no number). However, if you wish to have it repaired, that's your choice. Just pick someone who can do the job right.
Nice score - great price. It's way more than just a shooter.
Bob

08-24-2010, 01:41 PM	#1
apachedawg User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Springfield, TN Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1912 Erfurt Luger I am new to Lugers and this forum and thought I'd show off a recent purchase. I found this at my local gun shop. The finish is very good, looks original with some light flecking on the barrel, some wear on the high spot on the trigger plate and the thumb disk on the take down lever is missing. It has a 3 digit Serial Number, X61 (X is a number). All the external parts are numbered 61 though the mag doen't match and appears to be from WW2 (Waffenmark with a 37). The markings are sharp. The grips show a little wear on the right side and are very dark. The barrel is mirror bright with sharp lands and grooves. It picked it up for $585 OTD. There are proof marks all over it that look like stylized letters with a crown over them. The forward mark on the right side is what looks like an eagle but not the usual Wiemer Eagle. It is also on the barrel shank. Now a couple of questions, did I do OK? I think so. What is this eagle proof mark, Austrian? Should I replace or repair the take down lever even though it functions fine? What is a good way to clean the grips without damaging them? Here are some pictures. __________________ Guns? Ya, I own a few.

08-24-2010, 01:52 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	Some would call it a shooter because of the broken take down. Personally, a 1912 in nice condition is nothing to frown on. These can be fixed using a donor take down, it can be seen from the rear but this way you keep the original take down. As is, you did good on the price, I think well done. Welcome to the forum. It is preferred if you post photos here as many times they get deleted from photobucket. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-24-2010, 01:56 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,119 Thanked 5,286 Times in 1,728 Posts	Howard Collins ("policeluger" on this forum) can repair that takedown lever. His work is unbelieveable. I would say you did very well for $585! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-24-2010, 03:07 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,119 Thanked 5,286 Times in 1,728 Posts	At the risk of disagreeing with a great guy like Norme, I am pretty sure that the gun has not been refinished. There is a halo around the bore gauge and I think around the barrel serial number (although it is difficult to tell with that silly black dot), and it has a pronounced "toggle slap" at the rear of the frame. I think that the apparent lack of "in the white" appearance of the holdopen pin is the result of age darkening since the contour of the frame and the installation "proof" are so sharp. At any rate, original or possibly refinished long ago, it is a nice gun and not "just a shooter". __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-02-2010, 05:02 AM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	First, I agree with you, but maybe say it a bit nicer? We 'try" to be civil and nice to each other on the forum, although I am not always that way myself This is thought of by many people as keeping the numbers secret a "security" measure, for the following reasons: 1. Some one will see a luger and claim that it was theirs years ago, by hiding the serial number, no one can claim this. I have never heard of this actually happening, although I am sure it has; although I am inclined to believe that it is more of an urban myth. That said, I sold a luger to a gentleman in Calf and when he went to register it, it came up as a hit of a stolen weapon. The new owner contacted me, and I contacted the officer in charge of the investigation, indicating that the sn by itself had to be combined with the year, caliber, toggle markings and if there is a suffix, the suffix. The gun was allowed to be registered... 2. Folks worry about other people knowing the sn of their guns. Unsure why 3. They have seen other collectors do it for years, so they do it. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-24-2010, 03:08 PM	#6
newluger User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Franklin Tennessee Posts: 119 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts	Welcome to the Forum. You did allright. I'm sure you have more than $585 worth of parts, if you were to later part it out. In any event, it looks like you've got yourself a good shooter. Newluger

10-02-2010, 12:17 AM	#7
marshombre User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: W Central FL Posts: 98 Thanks: 13 Thanked 20 Times in 11 Posts	WTH is this mania for obliterating serial numbers in photos? Does the firearm have a less than kosher pedigree? That is, did you steal it? If not, why omit the number?

10-02-2010, 11:07 AM	#9
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	apachedawg - Yes, you did very well considering what you paid for it. You can see there is no agreement on whether your pistol has been refinished. On the underside of the barrel, back by the receiver, you will see the serial number. And then below that you will see the number "8,82" which is the distance in millimeters between the lands in the rifling inside the barrel. This barrel gauge measurement is always more lightly struck than the serial number, and it is one of the first casualties when a gun has been refinished. In your example, it looks sharp and it also has the "halo" around it. So this is some evidence to consider too. Another casualty on Erfurt Lugers which have been refinished is the proof mark on the trigger plate/side plate. This one looks fine to me. The color of the blue job on this one looks good too, in my opinion. So I guess I tend more toward thinking this is the original finish too. I wonder if your hold open pin might just be discolored rather than refinished? You asked about the Eagle proof on the right side of the receiver possibly indicating some relationship to Austria? The answer is no, this is just an ordinary Erfurt proofmark which they always used in that spot. You also asked about repairing or replacing the take down lever. I would recommend getting the existing lever repaired as suggested above. Your existing part, although broken, is serially numbered to match the rest of the gun, and it also has the Erfurt proofmark. So in my opinion, you should keep that lever and have it repaired by an expert as Mr. Wood has suggested. You also asked about cleaning the grips? In this case, I think I would not recommend cleaning the grips. You run the risk of ruining them. You have a genuine World War One Imperial German Luger. If you clean them, you run the risk of them looking like they do not actually belong to the gun any more. You also run the risk of breaking them, especially the left grip immediately under the safety lever. This area was one of the weak spots in the design, and you will see a lot of left Luger grip panels with a chip out at the point under the safety lever. Collectors refer to this as the "million dollar chip." However, if you want to take the risk, there is information on this Forum about how to clean the grips, etc. Look on the left side of the home page, and you will see a column of various headings. Click on "General Information" and there is a good article on how to clean grips, etc. Please use extreme caution when you take the grips off. Of course you want to make certain the gun is not loaded first. Then remove the magazine. Then unscrew each grip screw only one turn. Then insert your index finger inside the magazine well, and gently press outward on the right grip. When it separates from the frame, the only slightly loosened grip screw will keep it from moving out too far in the wrong direction. So the partially loosened grip screw is a precaution when you initially remove the grip. Then loosen the screw the rest of the way, and lift the grip slightly down and away from the grip frame. You use this same procedure on the left grip. Loosen the grip screw only one turn. Put your index finger inside the magazine well, and press out gently, etc. When it comes loose from the frame, you may then remove the grip screw. The trick when removing the grip is to not let the safety lever break a chip out of the top of the grip. Gently pull the grip slightly downward, and slightly away from the grip frame to avoid any stress on the top of the grip which is under the safety lever. You will probably want to give the gun a good oiling anyway, but avoid getting any oil on the wooden grips. Thank you for sharing, and congratulations on acquiring such a reasonably priced example of a very nice historical piece! __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

10-02-2010, 01:46 PM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	This gun has not been refinished. Parts in the white WILL discolor over time and are not a good indicator of a reblue job.

10-02-2010, 04:13 PM	#12
Giuliano User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Salerno - Italia Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, even I think the gun is not finished. Very fine and the price is very, very good!! Saluti Giuliano

10-02-2010, 05:57 PM	#13
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	In my opinion this pistol has not been refinished.

10-02-2010, 07:27 PM	#14
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	You did real good first time outta the chute. Welcome to the addiction! FN

10-09-2010, 05:31 PM	#15
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 971 Times in 277 Posts	Looks original to me __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

10-10-2010, 08:43 PM	#17
deepdarkwoodsman User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 38 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 1 Post	It seems as though every luger has someone who believes it to be a refinished gun. I have seen re-finished lugers and know the usual tells that indicate a re-finish. I strongly believe the Erfurt in question to be original. But, is there really any way to know for sure? Thanks. Doug

10-11-2010, 12:38 PM	#18
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Also looks original to me. With your TD lever "Collins repaired" and a nice orig double marked Erfurt wood bottom mag, assuming that the grips have the matching serials inside, it could be worth up to twice what you paid, when you sell also include the sales price of the WW2 mag. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-11-2010, 02:27 PM	#19
whcoyote User Join Date: May 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	I agree with Ron Wood- I don't think the pistol has been refinished. I'm looking at the halo around the bore gage, the hold-open pin (just aged) and the end mill marks left inside the frame "ears". These are all good indicators. Concerning the broken take-down lever - if it were my pistol I would leave it alone and begin a search for an Erfurt replacement with matching number (Tom Heller in the above post sells Luger parts - also Phil Siacaccio in Afton, VA - sorry, no number). However, if you wish to have it repaired, that's your choice. Just pick someone who can do the job right. Nice score - great price. It's way more than just a shooter. Bob