Questions for a new Luger owner

phil.luger · 09-21-2010, 08:29 PM

Hello all, I received this Luger from my dad a few months ago and have a few questions.

It is 9mm

I know the drop down lever is wrong, a gunsmith said it may be off a Stoeger of the same era...or re-made.

Also, I don't have a pic, but I would really like to know the meaning of the numbers on the metal frame between the grip, below the trigger. Mine shows: 1./N.3.17.

Any insight to my gun, history, etc...much appreciated! Thanks, Phil

phil.luger · 09-21-2010, 08:47 PM

More pics...any info or comments are very welcome! Phil

Hugo Borchardt · 09-21-2010, 08:50 PM

Hi! Welcome! Can you provide a clear picture of the unit markings you are asking about on the front gripstrap?

phil.luger · 09-21-2010, 09:17 PM

Also, here is the best pic I could get of the numbers on the inside handle frame , below the trigger. What does this represent?

lfid · 09-21-2010, 09:18 PM

Phil,

the takedown/locking lever looks really well done and I suspect it is one of a kind

does the takedown show any signs of the exterior lever having been welded or
perhaps threaded/pinned to the inside cylindrical portion of the takedown part ?

exterior part of the takedown may be from a donor non-luger gun safety / locking part

closeup of the right side area on slide proof marks near the barrel mount would help identify luger

my guess would be early post WWI police issue , and has had a reblue at some later time

thanks for sharing !!!
Bill

mrerick · 09-21-2010, 09:21 PM

Hi,

As Clark mentioned, the markings you asked about are most likely unit markings.

Your Luger is a mix of parts from several guns. The forward toggle has DWM in script.

In 1921, DWM was only permitted to manufacture commercial lugers (for private sale, or police departments).

A very small number of Military proofed Lugers with the 1921 date were manufactured by DWM.

You need to re-photograph your Luger without using a flash, and in indirect diffuse light.

Use a tripod, and set the camera for closeup photography.

Clearer sharper pictures will help.

On the bottom of the barrel, get a picture of any numbering. Same thing on the front of the frame above the trigger guard, including any suffix letter that may be there. Is there an "a" or "b" suffix letter on the front of the frame under the numeric portion of the serial number?

I do think you have a particularly nice Wiemar era Luger!

Marc

phil.luger · 09-21-2010, 09:23 PM

That is a tough pic to get! See below...Phil

phil.luger · 09-21-2010, 09:38 PM

I have already been told this has been re-blued, but I was also told to check out this site and find out what Ya'll think! A little back story...my dad gave me this gun in July...he got it at a gun show in Ohio for $825. I have always been fascinated by lugers (I'm of German decent) and this is the first I've owned and am trying to learn as much as I can about it. It is kind of a "project" me and my dad have to bond again on...!

I will take some better pics and post them to hopefully answer any question ya'll may have.

My goal is to shoot this off a couple time a year when dad is in town, and then store it for a while. He's mid 70's and I', early 40's...

I have just been curious to its history and want to respect that, and keep it in good condition for the next generation to enjoy!! Phil

George Anderson · 09-21-2010, 11:06 PM

The grip strap marking is a Reichswehr unit mark from the Weimar period post 1922. It indicates 3rd Kompagnie, 1st Nachrichten-Abteilung, Waffe 17...an intelligence organization.

Edward Tinker · 09-22-2010, 05:53 AM

Here is the synopsis version;

It is a DWM made gun new in 1921, not a refurbished one (see the Weimar acceptance markings) that went to an Recihswehr (army weimar era) unit as George put it; 3rd Kompagnie, 1st Nachrichten-Abteilung, Waffe 17...an intelligence organization.

At some point it was either very well worn or had some pitting and it was reblued, most likely in the USA.

Ed

John Sabato · 09-22-2010, 08:37 AM

I think the takedown lever is a very well gunsmith or machinist made replacement... or repair of a takedown lever that was damaged.

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

phil.luger · 09-22-2010, 06:10 PM

Here are some better pics I took after I got back from the range...it fired like a champ! Any additional information on the markings shown would be greatly appreciated...the info on the "unit markings" on the grip metal was fantastic..Thanks...Phil

mrerick · 09-22-2010, 09:29 PM

Hi Phil,

The "8.83" on the barrel is the barrel gauge - 8.83mm from land to land.

It looks like it has been refinished using the "salt" bluing process then buffed. Your gun would have originally been "rust blued" at the factory.

The markings on the right of the receiver are the proof marks applied as the pistol completed major stages of testing and acceptance. "WaA4" refers to a weapons inspection office. This gun is of the period of the Wiemar Republic.

Your much better pictures are much more helpful...

Marc

phil.luger · 09-22-2010, 10:15 PM

Thanks for the info, Marc. The Weirmar Republic existed from 1919-1933ish according to Wikipedia. Any clues to in that timeframe this gun was manufactured... can we get year specific ( I thought the 1921 wasn't a manufacture date)? Just curious...Phil

lugerholsterrepair · 09-22-2010, 10:46 PM

Phil,,can we get year specific ( I thought the 1921 wasn't a manufacture date)? Just curious...

You might be confusing the 1920 German property mark, 1920 is NOT a date. 1921 IS the manufacture date on your pistol.

Marc says in his previous posting..A very small number of Military proofed Lugers with the 1921 date were manufactured by DWM.

Ed says in a previous post..It is a DWM made gun new in 1921, not a refurbished one

Jerry Burney

phil.luger · 09-22-2010, 11:01 PM

Yes, as you can see, I'm new to this gun and forum. I have received some conflicting info and am just trying to sort it out!!! No hard feelings! Below is a reply on "The High Road" I got a few weeks ago:
The 1920/1921 dates don't necessarily mean refinished guns or ones made from parts. In 1920, the Weimar republic passed a law banning private ownership of military weapons; guns that were surrendered in compliance with the law were marked with the date received, thus showing legal ownership by the state. Later, those guns were issued to the military or police like any other guns.

Many thousands of military pistols were refurbished and converted to 7.65mm (because making pistols in 9mm for commercial sale was also illegal) for sale on the world market to obtain desperately needed hard currency. But those have all receiver ring markings removed and are not dated. They are, incidentally, good pistols and the ".30 Luger" is a dream to shoot.

phil.luger · 09-22-2010, 11:03 PM

No way to tell the year the gun was made, since the original date has apparently been removed. (It was not made in 1921; that date is explained above.)

It probably dates to the years of the first World War, but it could be any year from 1908 to 1918.

lugerholsterrepair · 09-22-2010, 11:22 PM

Phil, Whoever told you this poppycock is misinformed.

It probably dates to the years of the first World War, but it could be any year from 1908 to 1918. This idiotic statement can be easily refuted by looking at the proofs shown on the right side of the reciever/top slide rail.

If it were 1908 or 1918 these proofs would be intirely different than they are or in the case of 1908..on the left side.

guns that were surrendered in compliance with the law were marked with the date received. Not true. Guns that were under state control were marked 1920 as a property mark.

Hard feelings? None here, we are mind numbed robots.

By the way I have to say..your photo's are excellent! Nice job with them.

Jerry Burney

phil.luger · 09-22-2010, 11:55 PM

Wow, I assume everyone else has already experienced this...but how much does the condition of the gun look so much worse when magnified in the photos you take!!! I thought this gun looked "relatively pristine" when I first picked it up! Outdoor, overcast sunshine shows all... Thanks, everyone, Phil

MFC · 09-22-2010, 11:57 PM

Phil,
A 1920 property mark is usually hand stamped and can be rather crude compared to a date stamp which is roll stamped. Most of the time, when a 1920 property mark was added to a military dated Luger , the original date of manufacture was left on the receiver, creating a "so called" double date. When military lugers were refurbished after WWI for the commercial market, property marks, dates and military proofs were removed.

09-21-2010, 08:29 PM	#1
phil.luger User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Atlanta Posts: 14 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Questions for a new Luger owner Hello all, I received this Luger from my dad a few months ago and have a few questions. It is 9mm I know the drop down lever is wrong, a gunsmith said it may be off a Stoeger of the same era...or re-made. Also, I don't have a pic, but I would really like to know the meaning of the numbers on the metal frame between the grip, below the trigger. Mine shows: 1./N.3.17. Any insight to my gun, history, etc...much appreciated! Thanks, Phil Attached Thumbnails Last edited by phil.luger; 09-22-2010 at 06:01 PM.

09-21-2010, 08:47 PM	#2
phil.luger User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Atlanta Posts: 14 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More pics More pics...any info or comments are very welcome! Phil Last edited by phil.luger; 09-22-2010 at 06:02 PM.

09-21-2010, 08:50 PM	#3
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 372 Thanks: 340 Thanked 143 Times in 48 Posts	Hi! Welcome! Can you provide a clear picture of the unit markings you are asking about on the front gripstrap? __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

09-21-2010, 09:17 PM	#4
phil.luger User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Atlanta Posts: 14 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Also, here is the best pic I could get of the numbers on the inside handle frame , below the trigger. What does this represent? Attached Thumbnails

09-21-2010, 09:21 PM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Hi, As Clark mentioned, the markings you asked about are most likely unit markings. Your Luger is a mix of parts from several guns. The forward toggle has DWM in script. In 1921, DWM was only permitted to manufacture commercial lugers (for private sale, or police departments). A very small number of Military proofed Lugers with the 1921 date were manufactured by DWM. You need to re-photograph your Luger without using a flash, and in indirect diffuse light. Use a tripod, and set the camera for closeup photography. Clearer sharper pictures will help. On the bottom of the barrel, get a picture of any numbering. Same thing on the front of the frame above the trigger guard, including any suffix letter that may be there. Is there an "a" or "b" suffix letter on the front of the frame under the numeric portion of the serial number? I do think you have a particularly nice Wiemar era Luger! Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war. Last edited by mrerick; 09-22-2010 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Correction...

09-21-2010, 09:18 PM	#5
lfid Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wichita, KS USA Posts: 453 Thanks: 573 Thanked 96 Times in 53 Posts	Phil, the takedown/locking lever looks really well done and I suspect it is one of a kind does the takedown show any signs of the exterior lever having been welded or perhaps threaded/pinned to the inside cylindrical portion of the takedown part ? exterior part of the takedown may be from a donor non-luger gun safety / locking part closeup of the right side area on slide proof marks near the barrel mount would help identify luger my guess would be early post WWI police issue , and has had a reblue at some later time thanks for sharing !!! Bill

09-21-2010, 09:23 PM	#7
phil.luger User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Atlanta Posts: 14 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	That is a tough pic to get! See below...Phil

09-21-2010, 09:38 PM	#8
phil.luger User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Atlanta Posts: 14 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have already been told this has been re-blued, but I was also told to check out this site and find out what Ya'll think! A little back story...my dad gave me this gun in July...he got it at a gun show in Ohio for $825. I have always been fascinated by lugers (I'm of German decent) and this is the first I've owned and am trying to learn as much as I can about it. It is kind of a "project" me and my dad have to bond again on...! I will take some better pics and post them to hopefully answer any question ya'll may have. My goal is to shoot this off a couple time a year when dad is in town, and then store it for a while. He's mid 70's and I', early 40's... I have just been curious to its history and want to respect that, and keep it in good condition for the next generation to enjoy!! Phil

09-21-2010, 11:06 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	The grip strap marking is a Reichswehr unit mark from the Weimar period post 1922. It indicates 3rd Kompagnie, 1st Nachrichten-Abteilung, Waffe 17...an intelligence organization.

09-22-2010, 05:53 AM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Here is the synopsis version; It is a DWM made gun new in 1921, not a refurbished one (see the Weimar acceptance markings) that went to an Recihswehr (army weimar era) unit as George put it; 3rd Kompagnie, 1st Nachrichten-Abteilung, Waffe 17...an intelligence organization. At some point it was either very well worn or had some pitting and it was reblued, most likely in the USA. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-22-2010, 08:37 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I think the takedown lever is a very well gunsmith or machinist made replacement... or repair of a takedown lever that was damaged. Welcome to the Lugerforum. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-22-2010, 06:10 PM	#12
phil.luger User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Atlanta Posts: 14 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Alot better pics of markings Here are some better pics I took after I got back from the range...it fired like a champ! Any additional information on the markings shown would be greatly appreciated...the info on the "unit markings" on the grip metal was fantastic..Thanks...Phil Attached Thumbnails

09-22-2010, 09:29 PM	#13
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Hi Phil, The "8.83" on the barrel is the barrel gauge - 8.83mm from land to land. It looks like it has been refinished using the "salt" bluing process then buffed. Your gun would have originally been "rust blued" at the factory. The markings on the right of the receiver are the proof marks applied as the pistol completed major stages of testing and acceptance. "WaA4" refers to a weapons inspection office. This gun is of the period of the Wiemar Republic. Your much better pictures are much more helpful... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-22-2010, 10:15 PM	#14
phil.luger User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Atlanta Posts: 14 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the reply! Thanks for the info, Marc. The Weirmar Republic existed from 1919-1933ish according to Wikipedia. Any clues to in that timeframe this gun was manufactured... can we get year specific ( I thought the 1921 wasn't a manufacture date)? Just curious...Phil

09-22-2010, 10:46 PM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Phil,,can we get year specific ( I thought the 1921 wasn't a manufacture date)? Just curious... You might be confusing the 1920 German property mark, 1920 is NOT a date. 1921 IS the manufacture date on your pistol. Marc says in his previous posting..A very small number of Military proofed Lugers with the 1921 date were manufactured by DWM. Ed says in a previous post..It is a DWM made gun new in 1921, not a refurbished one Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-22-2010, 11:01 PM	#16
phil.luger User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Atlanta Posts: 14 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry for the confusion... Yes, as you can see, I'm new to this gun and forum. I have received some conflicting info and am just trying to sort it out!!! No hard feelings! Below is a reply on "The High Road" I got a few weeks ago: The 1920/1921 dates don't necessarily mean refinished guns or ones made from parts. In 1920, the Weimar republic passed a law banning private ownership of military weapons; guns that were surrendered in compliance with the law were marked with the date received, thus showing legal ownership by the state. Later, those guns were issued to the military or police like any other guns. Many thousands of military pistols were refurbished and converted to 7.65mm (because making pistols in 9mm for commercial sale was also illegal) for sale on the world market to obtain desperately needed hard currency. But those have all receiver ring markings removed and are not dated. They are, incidentally, good pistols and the ".30 Luger" is a dream to shoot.

09-22-2010, 11:03 PM	#17
phil.luger User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Atlanta Posts: 14 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	a little more as it goes on... No way to tell the year the gun was made, since the original date has apparently been removed. (It was not made in 1921; that date is explained above.) It probably dates to the years of the first World War, but it could be any year from 1908 to 1918.

09-22-2010, 11:22 PM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Phil, Whoever told you this poppycock is misinformed. It probably dates to the years of the first World War, but it could be any year from 1908 to 1918. This idiotic statement can be easily refuted by looking at the proofs shown on the right side of the reciever/top slide rail. If it were 1908 or 1918 these proofs would be intirely different than they are or in the case of 1908..on the left side. guns that were surrendered in compliance with the law were marked with the date received. Not true. Guns that were under state control were marked 1920 as a property mark. Hard feelings? None here, we are mind numbed robots. By the way I have to say..your photo's are excellent! Nice job with them. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-22-2010, 11:55 PM	#19
phil.luger User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Atlanta Posts: 14 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow, I assume everyone else has already experienced this...but how much does the condition of the gun look so much worse when magnified in the photos you take!!! I thought this gun looked "relatively pristine" when I first picked it up! Outdoor, overcast sunshine shows all... Thanks, everyone, Phil

09-22-2010, 11:57 PM	#20
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Phil, A 1920 property mark is usually hand stamped and can be rather crude compared to a date stamp which is roll stamped. Most of the time, when a 1920 property mark was added to a military dated Luger , the original date of manufacture was left on the receiver, creating a "so called" double date. When military lugers were refurbished after WWI for the commercial market, property marks, dates and military proofs were removed. __________________ Mike C.