Black Widow Lugers

[paid4c4]

I've always been drawn to the looks of the "black widow" lugers. I'm thinking about making a black widow the next addition to my collection. Any hints on things to look for or must haves would be appreciated. What price ranges should I expect.
Bill

[MikeP]

Lots of threads on these.

You may know "Black Widow" was coined as a selling tool when these were the least desireable of Lugers.

Should be a BYF 41 with black grips and black FXO mag.

Sellers today call other configs BWs, but are wrong.

Also folks want premium prices as these pistols have achieved a niche of their own.
In "the day" collectors looked down their noses at thes "last ditch" nazi pieces.

One example of the fine line between hobby and mental illness.

Hope you find a nice one, but be prepared to dig deep,

[Edward Tinker]

Mike, I have been told that our FAQ is correct, it states byf 41 and byf 42

In addition, the new book Mauser Parabellum by Hallock and van de Kant state this as fact.

12) Proper Grips on a BYF 41?

No doubt there were no wooden grips available at the time that the gun was assembled. It is my understanding that that the "bakelite" grips were authorized for use if wood grips were not available. They were not initially intended to replace wooden grips. Obviously, as the war progressed wood became scarcer and the use of the bakelite grips became more and more prevalent. It should be pointed out that the byf 41 series did not begin with the "a" suffix.

Black bakelite grips were approved for use in mid 1941. After that both bakelite and wood grips were used.

A byf 41, no suffix would have been completed in Nov. or Dec 1941. The byf 41's spanned the serial numbers from the early N-Block to the early B-Block.

To tell if they are original: if the grips have a threaded hole on the inside of both grips and that threaded hole is sized for the grip screw, you have a good chance of having original grips. My concern is that some of the recent fakers may have figured this out and have made corrections in their molds. I have a pair of obvious fakes on one of my shooters and they do NOT have the threaded holes present.

¦ and found these photos on the old Forum. The authentic grips are on the left side of each photo...


As an aside: According to Still, the 41 byf models were generally issued with aluminum bottom magazines which were numbered to the gun. 42 usually had black plastic bottom magazines ( no number).

13) Proper Grips on a BYF 42?

Either wood or black bakelite grips would be proper on your byf 42. If you remove the grips, be very careful when you remove the left grip as it is very easy to chip the upper rear corner behind the safety. The grips should, but not always, have an eagle/135 stamp on them and, perhaps, the last 2 digits of the serial #. Again, the grips were not always stamped. If there is an eagle acceptance stamp that is not 135 or numbers that do not match the last two digits of the serial # on your gun, the grips were not issued with your pistol and are replacements. If they are stamped with only a 42 then the are, no doubt, armourers (sp) replacements.

Almost all of the byf 42's have the last two digits on the inside of the wood grips and almost all of them have the eagle 135 acceptance proof. In fact, it would be the exception to find an original issued byf 42 rig that did not have the last two digits and the eagle 135 proof on them, or at least one of them.

In regard to your question about the Luger grips of late war manufacture, they were just as I stated earlier. Namely, the byf 42's were almost always numbered with the last two digits and had the E/135 proof. A few just had the E/135 proof only. The exception would be to find a completely blank pair at this time. It is possible, -- yes -- but not many. I had byf 42 1766 H at one time with wood grips, 66 inside and an E/135.
As mentioned earlier, each year and variation has different grip markings and has to be considered separately. For instance, the 1936 S/42's are mostly blank with a very few numbered with the last two digits. The 1939 42's are mostly blank or blank with a E/655, and again very few are numbered to the gun. The 1939 S/42 are almost all numbered to the gun. So each year and variation have there own characteristics and you can not just lump them all together with a general conclusion. Why is it that some are numbered and some are only proofed and still others are completely blank? -- I have no answer and I doubt that anyone does, but the recorded facts are the facts. One explanation would be that the Lugers were assembled in certain batches of say 100 or so and that worker or inspector marked his and others did not. That is only a guess. I have well over 100 Mauser military Lugers and there are certain patterns that can be followed.
The end of Luger production had nothing what so ever to do with blank grips on military models, as there was a contract and inspectors and a certain standard that had to be met. 1942 was not the end of the war, but only the end of Luger production. The Germans were very strict on standards and the quality of fit on the byf 42's is still very good as they were hand fitted to that specific Luger. There are certain guides, or rules, or characteristics that we as collectors have to go by and we know this by looking at examples and recording what we see. You can make excuses for just about anything and say that there are exceptions to every rule, but we as collectors can not do that. Things are a certain way and if they vary from that certain known way, then one has to be leery. In this case, it would be the exception to have a byf 42 with completely blank wood grips. It would be the exception to have a rear connecting pin that was blank, as it would be the exception for the hold-open or firing pin to be blank.
On the particular byf 42 discussed in the beginning of this thread, I would guess that if they are the original grips that you will find a very faint E/135 on the inside of the grips. These are sometimes very, very hard to see and you need a glass to find them.

[MikeP]

Well, I stand corrected.
I don't much read newer books;

I recall between about 63-66 they used to sit around the shows and talk about these.
I think the emphasis on '41s was they seemed to be more transitional.
Lots had wood grips, but the bakelites really turned folks off. They usually always had fxo mags.
A vet would bring in a mint rig and a guy with 50 Lugers on the table would just shake his head.
"Double dates" and WW1 unit stamps were deal kllers as well.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by MikeP

...and a guy with 50 Lugers on the table would just shake his head.

Could you hear it rattle???

[mikefromstpete]

From a new guy.
byf 41 and three byf 42s

[StarOfTheWest]

Do I see strawed parts on 2 of the above pictured guns??
I thought they stopped using that back in 1937.

[paid4c4]

Originally Posted by StarOfTheWest

Do I see strawed parts on 2 of the above pictured guns??
I thought they stopped using that back in 1937.

Nice looking Lugers, did you have to rub it in!

I also thought that strawing stopped in the 30's? I'm waiting to hear from some of those members who are more knowledable.
Bill

[mrerick]

Yes - last of the factory Rust Blue and Straw in 1937 when they slowly made the transition to all Salt Blued.

Marc

[wlyon]

Strawed small parts ceased during 1937. Bill

[SteveM]

Three of 'em have strawed parts..