early german luger, looking for info

speedydemon72 · 08-31-2010, 05:54 PM

I have a German Luger that has been passed down in my family since my great great grandfather. It is a 9mm, 6" barrel, reverse safety and also has the grip safety. 100 & 200 range site. You can put a stock on this gun(don't have one though). It is missing the front site piece. It is stamped(scrolled) DWM, the serial # is 3608. All numbers are matching with the exception of the clip(#'ed 3331). Underside of the barrel has a crown symbol and the letter "M"(i was told is a navy issue??), with ser. 3608 under that. 08 is stamped in 3 visible places on the gun. There are no other markings, #'s, or stamps on this gun. I took this to a gun appraiser(not a luger appraiser), he couldn't give me any info on the value of this gun. All he could tell me is he thinks the year is 1904 and the bluing is about 95% and it's in excellent condition. What I would like to know is an estimated value of this gun....the year and model....and any other info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much for taking the time to read this.

sheepherder · 08-31-2010, 06:03 PM

Yup, you got a Navy Luger. Tom Heller should have a front sight blade for you [lugerdoc on this site].

Excellent start to a collection!

nukem556 · 08-31-2010, 06:43 PM

some people have all the luck! I wouldn't be surprised if Angelina Jolie shows up later at your house in a nightie with a bottle of good wine!

FNorm · 08-31-2010, 09:48 PM

WOW! Beautiful! I think a 1906 first issue. But wait for the real Navy experts to show up.

Whaaaat? When she showed up here, I had to supply the wine,,,

FN

Norme · 08-31-2010, 10:43 PM

Hi Randy, Welcome to the forum. You have a 1906 Navy 1st issue with the safety in the original, unaltered, configuration. This is a rare and very desirable variation, and yours appears to be in extraordinary condition. However there are two areas of concern. Firstly, your gun appears to be missing the Naval proofs and acceptance marks on the left barrel, receiver and breechblock (see photo). Secondly, I see no sign of barrel serial number halos. I hope that this is just the photos you provided. Perhaps you could post clear photos of the left side of the gun, and a close up of the barrel serial. Regards, Norm

speedydemon72 · 09-01-2010, 12:30 AM

NORME: Thanks alot for the reply. There are no other markings on this gun, other then whats stated and pictured. Picture 7 shows the markings on the barrel. If you click on the picture and then click on it again after it opens it will show you a full photo. Also helps if you zoom in the % on the page. Not sure if you knew that, just thought I would suggest it. The lack of markings is what has me stumped on what this gun is. I was told that some of the earlier guns didn't have a lot of the stamps. Could that be true?
Thanks again for all your help.

Edward Tinker · 09-01-2010, 02:47 AM

I would say it is either a refurbished and sold in Canada (no germany stamps that I could see) from the 1920's/1930's

Or a very nice reblue (a restore would have the markings reapplied if possible). See how faint the crown M on the bottom of the barrel looks.

And no, the chance of it leaving the factory without being accepted and proofed is as remote as Norme seeing Angelena (sp) show up. My goodness you live in colorado, and she lives in utah or something, she'd have to make an appointment with you?

Ed

nukem556 · 09-01-2010, 07:28 AM

is it possible the original barrel extension was damaged and replaced, and the original barrel reblued and installed on it?

Lugerdoc · 09-01-2010, 09:01 AM

I agree with the above that this pistol doesn't have the Navy acceptance marking, but without inspecting it, I would not rule out it being a 1920s Navy type commerical (see "Lugers at Random" page 182) using up leftover 1st issue M1906 parts. Years ago I had a long frame standard sight, non-grip safety type commerical with a crown/M marked (on bottom) barrel, that was made from old parts at DWM in the 20s. TH PS: I do have some NOS front sight blades available.

tau-delt · 09-01-2010, 11:22 AM

Norm.... Based on the thread going on over on Jan's Forum, I would think we would not expect to see halo on this early of a gun. Am I missing something ??

Norme · 09-01-2010, 11:55 AM

Hi Dave, If, as Tom has suggested, this gun is a post war Commercial Navy, I would expect to see halos. I also understand that most (but not all) Commercial Navies, were built on the later 1914 frame, had five digit serials, and were "Germany" marked. Regards, Norm

Ron Wood · 09-01-2010, 12:22 PM

A 1920 Commercial is probably a reasonable guess. All bets are off on 1920 Commercials, particularly those non-standard (i.e. navys, LP08s, carbines) that were assembled from parts...they are all over the place. Wouldn't be marked Germany if it was for European sales. This is a neat gun, whatever it is.

speedydemon72 · 09-01-2010, 12:48 PM

Hi thanks for all the great replies but if it was a 1920 commercial why are all the parts stamped with 08 that coincide with the serial # even on the inside of the grips and no other numbers. This thing has me baffled. I have been looking everywhere for info. Again thanks so much for everyone's replies and great info.

Ron Wood · 09-01-2010, 02:34 PM

Small parts and grips should be numbered with the last two digits, commercials included. What other numbers are you looking for?

tau-delt · 09-01-2010, 04:03 PM

Norm... I guess my thoughts were that if it was an original Ist Issue that perhaps just lost it's Navy acceptance stamps in the 1920 period then it wouldn't have had a halo since the get go...

Ron's comments about 1920 are well taken. Like Tom, I have what I've considered a 1920 6 inch Navy with navy rear sight and a C/M stamp on the bottom of the barrel. Serial number is 7757. No grip safety. Stamped MADE IN GERMANY.

Interesting period.....

speedydemon72 · 09-01-2010, 05:39 PM

Ron: Sorry, what I meant was if this was put together with spare pieces/parts would all the numbers still match? Including the small and interior parts? Also, I was under the impression that they removed the grip safety in 1908. As with the reverse safety lock earlier then that. Is my information wrong?
Thanks again for all the help.

Lugerdoc · 09-02-2010, 10:04 AM

SD, Prior to it's take over by Mauser in 1930, DWM was using up its left over unnumbered spare parts to built up all sorts of variations for commerical sale --- they needed the money. Mauser even continued to make some grip safety lugers for contract sales to the Swiss, Portugese (GNR), etc. TH

EricW · 09-03-2010, 12:07 AM

In the second photo, isn't the hole at the top of the stock lug indicative of a Mauser frame?

Jan C Still · 09-03-2010, 02:07 AM

Eric
Unusual, in that it has a long frame and what appears to be a Mauser stock lug!

Dwight Gruber · 09-03-2010, 02:28 PM

Metal has been removed from the barrel serial number area, and a number restamped. The absence of any proof marks on the gun suggests that it was not created in Germany.

--Dwight

08-31-2010, 05:54 PM	#1
speedydemon72 User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: PA, USA Posts: 9 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	early german luger, looking for info I have a German Luger that has been passed down in my family since my great great grandfather. It is a 9mm, 6" barrel, reverse safety and also has the grip safety. 100 & 200 range site. You can put a stock on this gun(don't have one though). It is missing the front site piece. It is stamped(scrolled) DWM, the serial # is 3608. All numbers are matching with the exception of the clip(#'ed 3331). Underside of the barrel has a crown symbol and the letter "M"(i was told is a navy issue??), with ser. 3608 under that. 08 is stamped in 3 visible places on the gun. There are no other markings, #'s, or stamps on this gun. I took this to a gun appraiser(not a luger appraiser), he couldn't give me any info on the value of this gun. All he could tell me is he thinks the year is 1904 and the bluing is about 95% and it's in excellent condition. What I would like to know is an estimated value of this gun....the year and model....and any other info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much for taking the time to read this. Attached Thumbnails

08-31-2010, 06:03 PM	#2
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	Yup, you got a Navy Luger. Tom Heller should have a front sight blade for you [lugerdoc on this site]. Excellent start to a collection! __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

08-31-2010, 06:43 PM	#3
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	gee... some people have all the luck! I wouldn't be surprised if Angelina Jolie shows up later at your house in a nightie with a bottle of good wine!

08-31-2010, 10:43 PM	#5
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Randy, Welcome to the forum. You have a 1906 Navy 1st issue with the safety in the original, unaltered, configuration. This is a rare and very desirable variation, and yours appears to be in extraordinary condition. However there are two areas of concern. Firstly, your gun appears to be missing the Naval proofs and acceptance marks on the left barrel, receiver and breechblock (see photo). Secondly, I see no sign of barrel serial number halos. I hope that this is just the photos you provided. Perhaps you could post clear photos of the left side of the gun, and a close up of the barrel serial. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

09-01-2010, 02:47 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I would say it is either a refurbished and sold in Canada (no germany stamps that I could see) from the 1920's/1930's Or a very nice reblue (a restore would have the markings reapplied if possible). See how faint the crown M on the bottom of the barrel looks. And no, the chance of it leaving the factory without being accepted and proofed is as remote as Norme seeing Angelena (sp) show up. My goodness you live in colorado, and she lives in utah or something, she'd have to make an appointment with you? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-31-2010, 09:48 PM	#4
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	WOW! Beautiful! I think a 1906 first issue. But wait for the real Navy experts to show up. Whaaaat? When she showed up here, I had to supply the wine,,, FN

09-01-2010, 12:30 AM	#6
speedydemon72 User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: PA, USA Posts: 9 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	NORME: Thanks alot for the reply. There are no other markings on this gun, other then whats stated and pictured. Picture 7 shows the markings on the barrel. If you click on the picture and then click on it again after it opens it will show you a full photo. Also helps if you zoom in the % on the page. Not sure if you knew that, just thought I would suggest it. The lack of markings is what has me stumped on what this gun is. I was told that some of the earlier guns didn't have a lot of the stamps. Could that be true? Thanks again for all your help.

09-01-2010, 07:28 AM	#8
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	is it possible the original barrel extension was damaged and replaced, and the original barrel reblued and installed on it?

09-01-2010, 09:01 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	I agree with the above that this pistol doesn't have the Navy acceptance marking, but without inspecting it, I would not rule out it being a 1920s Navy type commerical (see "Lugers at Random" page 182) using up leftover 1st issue M1906 parts. Years ago I had a long frame standard sight, non-grip safety type commerical with a crown/M marked (on bottom) barrel, that was made from old parts at DWM in the 20s. TH PS: I do have some NOS front sight blades available. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-01-2010, 11:22 AM	#10
tau-delt User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 106 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts	Norm.... Based on the thread going on over on Jan's Forum, I would think we would not expect to see halo on this early of a gun. Am I missing something ?? __________________ dave

09-01-2010, 11:55 AM	#11
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Dave, If, as Tom has suggested, this gun is a post war Commercial Navy, I would expect to see halos. I also understand that most (but not all) Commercial Navies, were built on the later 1914 frame, had five digit serials, and were "Germany" marked. Regards, Norm

09-01-2010, 12:22 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	A 1920 Commercial is probably a reasonable guess. All bets are off on 1920 Commercials, particularly those non-standard (i.e. navys, LP08s, carbines) that were assembled from parts...they are all over the place. Wouldn't be marked Germany if it was for European sales. This is a neat gun, whatever it is. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-01-2010, 12:48 PM	#13
speedydemon72 User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: PA, USA Posts: 9 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi thanks for all the great replies but if it was a 1920 commercial why are all the parts stamped with 08 that coincide with the serial # even on the inside of the grips and no other numbers. This thing has me baffled. I have been looking everywhere for info. Again thanks so much for everyone's replies and great info.

09-01-2010, 02:34 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Small parts and grips should be numbered with the last two digits, commercials included. What other numbers are you looking for? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-01-2010, 04:03 PM	#15
tau-delt User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 106 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts	Norm... I guess my thoughts were that if it was an original Ist Issue that perhaps just lost it's Navy acceptance stamps in the 1920 period then it wouldn't have had a halo since the get go... Ron's comments about 1920 are well taken. Like Tom, I have what I've considered a 1920 6 inch Navy with navy rear sight and a C/M stamp on the bottom of the barrel. Serial number is 7757. No grip safety. Stamped MADE IN GERMANY. Interesting period..... __________________ dave

09-01-2010, 05:39 PM	#16
speedydemon72 User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: PA, USA Posts: 9 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron: Sorry, what I meant was if this was put together with spare pieces/parts would all the numbers still match? Including the small and interior parts? Also, I was under the impression that they removed the grip safety in 1908. As with the reverse safety lock earlier then that. Is my information wrong? Thanks again for all the help.

09-02-2010, 10:04 AM	#17
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	SD, Prior to it's take over by Mauser in 1930, DWM was using up its left over unnumbered spare parts to built up all sorts of variations for commerical sale --- they needed the money. Mauser even continued to make some grip safety lugers for contract sales to the Swiss, Portugese (GNR), etc. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-03-2010, 12:07 AM	#18
EricW User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: CA, USA Posts: 62 Thanks: 4 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	In the second photo, isn't the hole at the top of the stock lug indicative of a Mauser frame? __________________ I'm looking for a D suffix DE154 G Date mag. The closer to #457d the better PM me if you have one you are willing to sell, trade, or if you have a lead

09-03-2010, 02:07 AM	#19
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Eric Unusual, in that it has a long frame and what appears to be a Mauser stock lug!

09-03-2010, 02:28 PM	#20
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Metal has been removed from the barrel serial number area, and a number restamped. The absence of any proof marks on the gun suggests that it was not created in Germany. --Dwight