cleaning of old gun

CAP Black · 08-11-2010, 04:22 PM

I have a problem nagging at me and need the best advice.
I see lots of displays and collections of lugers that all look really sparkling and shinny. They appear to be cleaned and oiled and really looking, each, like a million bucks.
Some of the collections must have dozens and even hundreds of weapons - they are super shiny and beautiful. But I see oh-so-many comments along the lines of: "leave the old guns in the as-is-state with the patina, etc. because that makes them more valuable to collectors." Are those collections mentioned above not being preserved at their highest market value?
So let's say I have a 1917 artillery which is in great shape and it's had a light cleaning and is just as its been for many years-as far as I know, only having had it for 8 months or so. I can clean the bluing surface and have it looking somewhat like new and not use any harsh cleasers. I will take some light rust off - on the inside under the grips, etc. The bluing will come to life and look extra deep in coloring. Even some light scratches will sort of disappear.
What should I do?

mrerick · 08-11-2010, 09:35 PM

The advice you've heard about not damaging the original finish and aged patina of your Luger is good advice.

The rust blued or salt blued surface of the steel is a very thin layer of special rust. It's actually one form of the oxidation of steel - a black oxide instead of a red oxide. The blue black color comes from an extra molecule of oxygen bound up with the iron molecule. When 3 molecules bind with iron, you get red. When 4 molecules bind in a different structure you get blue/black.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29

It is very thin, and not at all hard. It is the steel surface that has already been oxidized. There are other molecules of iron that will continue to oxidize (rust) long after the gun has been blued. It is the normal aging process of steel that has been preserved in this way. The slowly forming oxide is red. A 100 year old gun SHOULD have some reddish oxide minutely visible in the finish. That's why you see the magnifying glasses used when judging the finish of a gun.

Oil and other preservatives prevent the oxidation, slow it down and delay it. A properly stored gun in a dry environment will not oxidize much - but it still will oxidize.

Take a gun out in the field and in a war, and preserving the finish is one of the last things that a soldier generally thinks about.

In Lugers, collectors highly value a full coverage original factory finish. Non-collectors may value a bright new shiny finish. You or your gunsmith can create a refinished gun. Only the factory created one with the original finish. The original finish can only deteriorate. It cannot get better. Collectors seek to slow down the deterioration - if not almost completely stop it.

So... you can also ruin an original Luger's value to a collector by rubbing it too much, spilling or applying blood or the wrong chemicals or breaking numbered or un-numbered parts.

It's really up to you as the owner. What do you value most. If it's the history, you want one like Luger collectors prefer. If it's something else - it's yours to do what you want with.

The value of original Lugers with very good finishes is high because they are so much more rare than ones with worn finishes.

Personally, I'd clean it lightly and carefully. Think soft cloth and not steel wool. Then I'd keep it preserved using a good gun oil with preservative properties. These are discussed in the reference area of this website.

It might be advisable to remove heavy rust from an area that is particularly deteriorating, if only to stop or slow down the process. Go slowly and gently. What's original and removed cannot be returned as original.

On a personal note, I have an all matching Simson & Co. Luger from 1928. The prior owner had the entire gun salt blued. I'm trying to decide now if I should leave it alone, or get it back to a professional for restoration to the correct rust blued and fire blued finish. Decisions... Decisions....

Marc

FNorm · 08-11-2010, 09:41 PM

Good answer and a great write up Marc.

FN

CAP Black · 08-12-2010, 11:36 AM

Thanks so much! I don't know how to formally say it as "FNorm" did, but I've said it.
I'm sure there are many more guys like me who will pick up on the wealth of good advice provided. I have paid attention to what's said and what happens with the various collectors on this forum (for about three years) and was developing a question, as I stated, which way do you go? Now we have a great answer and guidance from a man who apparently laid it all out for us. I will print his material and keep it with my gun records and re-read it every once in a while.
Thanks again - from all of us.
Jack

mrerick · 08-12-2010, 11:41 AM

Jack, I'm happy if I can be of some help.

I'm relatively new to Lugers - so this is based on the help I received from other members, some of the great reference books available and a couple of collectible Lugers I now own!

Marc

CAP Black · 08-13-2010, 10:51 AM

What is it you have to offer?

mrerick · 08-13-2010, 12:45 PM

Jack, I was referring to my prior post... Just some perspective on my background... Marc

08-11-2010, 04:22 PM	#1
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 174 Times in 96 Posts	cleaning of old gun I have a problem nagging at me and need the best advice. I see lots of displays and collections of lugers that all look really sparkling and shinny. They appear to be cleaned and oiled and really looking, each, like a million bucks. Some of the collections must have dozens and even hundreds of weapons - they are super shiny and beautiful. But I see oh-so-many comments along the lines of: "leave the old guns in the as-is-state with the patina, etc. because that makes them more valuable to collectors." Are those collections mentioned above not being preserved at their highest market value? So let's say I have a 1917 artillery which is in great shape and it's had a light cleaning and is just as its been for many years-as far as I know, only having had it for 8 months or so. I can clean the bluing surface and have it looking somewhat like new and not use any harsh cleasers. I will take some light rust off - on the inside under the grips, etc. The bluing will come to life and look extra deep in coloring. Even some light scratches will sort of disappear. What should I do?

08-11-2010, 09:35 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	The advice you've heard about not damaging the original finish and aged patina of your Luger is good advice. The rust blued or salt blued surface of the steel is a very thin layer of special rust. It's actually one form of the oxidation of steel - a black oxide instead of a red oxide. The blue black color comes from an extra molecule of oxygen bound up with the iron molecule. When 3 molecules bind with iron, you get red. When 4 molecules bind in a different structure you get blue/black. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29 It is very thin, and not at all hard. It is the steel surface that has already been oxidized. There are other molecules of iron that will continue to oxidize (rust) long after the gun has been blued. It is the normal aging process of steel that has been preserved in this way. The slowly forming oxide is red. A 100 year old gun SHOULD have some reddish oxide minutely visible in the finish. That's why you see the magnifying glasses used when judging the finish of a gun. Oil and other preservatives prevent the oxidation, slow it down and delay it. A properly stored gun in a dry environment will not oxidize much - but it still will oxidize. Take a gun out in the field and in a war, and preserving the finish is one of the last things that a soldier generally thinks about. In Lugers, collectors highly value a full coverage original factory finish. Non-collectors may value a bright new shiny finish. You or your gunsmith can create a refinished gun. Only the factory created one with the original finish. The original finish can only deteriorate. It cannot get better. Collectors seek to slow down the deterioration - if not almost completely stop it. So... you can also ruin an original Luger's value to a collector by rubbing it too much, spilling or applying blood or the wrong chemicals or breaking numbered or un-numbered parts. It's really up to you as the owner. What do you value most. If it's the history, you want one like Luger collectors prefer. If it's something else - it's yours to do what you want with. The value of original Lugers with very good finishes is high because they are so much more rare than ones with worn finishes. Personally, I'd clean it lightly and carefully. Think soft cloth and not steel wool. Then I'd keep it preserved using a good gun oil with preservative properties. These are discussed in the reference area of this website. It might be advisable to remove heavy rust from an area that is particularly deteriorating, if only to stop or slow down the process. Go slowly and gently. What's original and removed cannot be returned as original. On a personal note, I have an all matching Simson & Co. Luger from 1928. The prior owner had the entire gun salt blued. I'm trying to decide now if I should leave it alone, or get it back to a professional for restoration to the correct rust blued and fire blued finish. Decisions... Decisions.... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war. Last edited by mrerick; 08-12-2010 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Corrected last paragraph...

08-12-2010, 11:41 AM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Jack, I'm happy if I can be of some help. I'm relatively new to Lugers - so this is based on the help I received from other members, some of the great reference books available and a couple of collectible Lugers I now own! Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-13-2010, 10:51 AM	#6
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 174 Times in 96 Posts	ready to receive your information What is it you have to offer?

08-13-2010, 12:45 PM	#7
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Jack, I was referring to my prior post... Just some perspective on my background... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-11-2010, 09:41 PM	#3
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Good answer and a great write up Marc. FN

08-12-2010, 11:36 AM	#4
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 174 Times in 96 Posts	Thanks so much! I don't know how to formally say it as "FNorm" did, but I've said it. I'm sure there are many more guys like me who will pick up on the wealth of good advice provided. I have paid attention to what's said and what happens with the various collectors on this forum (for about three years) and was developing a question, as I stated, which way do you go? Now we have a great answer and guidance from a man who apparently laid it all out for us. I will print his material and keep it with my gun records and re-read it every once in a while. Thanks again - from all of us. Jack