Need your help.

casusc · 08-06-2010, 12:29 AM

I'm relatively new to this and am in awe of the weapons in this site.
I have an old Luger bought yrs. ago in a gun show and would really
appreciate some clarification of it's origin. The slide is stamped DWM. The serial # is 3439 and it appears in several places, incl. just 39 on the disassembly lever, so I guess it was made from one set of parts. The # 47 appears on the slide, perpend. to the DWM
logo, as well as several other places. On the chamber, right above the trigger is a symbol of a bird with a 6 under the wings. I found it in the listing as #33 in the descriptions. This symbol is stamped right below the # 74. Above the front of the trigger guard, right before the barrel starts, is the serial # again and a stamped symbol that resembles a sickle but I think it's a cursive letter "n".
On the aft end of the trigger guard, before the handle, is a numeric mark that didn't stamp well then right next to it is SAC. CA (tell me it's not Sacramento, Cal.!). Finally, on the fore end of the stock
is a bold S. followed by a slightly fainter Sta. I. then a smaller 291
If any of you could decipher all of this info and tell me what it means, aside from DWM which I know, it would be very useful and
educational for me. Thank you in advance for any help!

mrerick · 08-06-2010, 12:51 AM

Hi,

Welcome to the forum!

Pictures help alot... The nomenclature you use is not what the parts are actually called, so that makes interpretation harder.

You probably have a Luger made of a mix of parts from a couple of guns.

The full serial number should appear on the front of the frame above the trigger guard. It will be a one to five digit number with a cursive script letter under it in many cased. These form the full s/n of the gun. example 1234x.

The full numeric digits should be on the left front side of the receiver, and the bottom rear of the barrel. This varies from period to period, and between manufacturers, so I'm giving you general guidance. The last 2 digits of the serial number should then appear on many fitted parts. You mention numbers from different guns.

The Eagle/6 mark is an inspector mark used at the Simson factory in Suhl. They rebuilt WW-I lugers, so your gun or parts of it may have gone through their rebuild process.

I believe that the SAC. CA is probably an import mark, but would need to see it. It does likely mean "Sacramento, California".

The "S Sta. I. 291" is a police unit marking. http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/police_unit_marks.html

lists the history and markings of units. Yours is from Stade district.

Many guns were imported from assembled parts in the past 20 years. Your gun may have been an East German gun. There are proof marks that they used that might help identify that.

Marc

Edward Tinker · 08-06-2010, 01:20 AM

S.Sta.
Prussia
Schutzpolizei Stade

Good info abouve, although he meant that the serial number would be on the the Left side of the receiver and bottom of the barrel and front of the frame.

Ed

Ron Smith · 08-06-2010, 08:17 AM

With the SAC.CA. import mark, it could be a 'VoPo' (East German police) Luger.

Ron

Don M · 08-06-2010, 02:54 PM

Is there a date stamped on the top of the chamber? Is there a crown over N stamped on the left side of the chamber?

casusc · 08-13-2010, 12:00 AM

Yes, there's a N with a crown above the s/n (3439) but no date on top of the chamber, aside from a 47 that appears next to the DWM and on the slide. Is that 47 a date?

casusc · 08-13-2010, 12:14 AM

Thank you, all, for your valuable info. Seems my luger is from Prussia, Stade dist. and was a polizei
service weapon. Can I assume, from the link you sent me, that "S Sta. I 291" was from the
1920s? Marc, you're absolutely correct about pics. I need to take some decent ones and wil submit soon.

Don M · 08-13-2010, 01:13 PM

Photos will still be helpful but, from your descriptions, the following can be said:

As Marc observed, the full serial number of the pistol is 3439n. The letter suffix beneath the number on the front of the frame is part of the full number. The number 39 you see stamped on some of the small parts indicates these parts are original to the gun. The number 47 stamped on parts of the toggle train indicate it is from another gun. This pistol is therefore mismatched which will reduce its value among collectors as does the import stamp.

The full serial number and lack of a date stamped on top of the chamber indicate this pistol was manufactured by DWM (Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken) in 1924 or 1925 and left the factory with a .30-cal. barrel. It was purchased by the Prussian state police and rebarrelled for them in 9-mm by Simson & Co. as indicated by the eagle/6 stamp. There may be similar stamps on the barrel.

As others have noted, the pistol was issued to the Schutzpolizei of the Prussian administrative district of Stade, specifically the police of the port city of Wesermünde which is now part of Bremerhaven (HWIS Chapter 9). It was Luger #291 in their inventory.

You have not indicated whether the pistol has or had a sear safety or not. If it does, it probably remained in police service in Wesermünde/Bremerhaven throughout WWII. If it never had one, it was probably transferred to the military in 1934-36 along with its owner.

casusc · 08-13-2010, 05:24 PM

Thanks again, you've been very helpful. My luger has a sear safety (gesichert stamped on it) so it was a cop piece, as the S. Sta. indicates. What does the I. after Sta. (before the 291) mean? I'm not too worried about the 47 toggle indicating it's mixed, not looking to sell it. All the other parts are 3439, incl. the barrel. You mention it was originally a .30 cal. and rebarreled for 9mm. Why then, does the frame (in 3 places) s/n match the barrel s/n? Just curious. I took some closeups today and will post them and a full shot as well. From what you fellows have educated me on, I didn't do too badly for $250, did I? That's what I paid at the gun show. I appreciate the info.

casusc · 08-13-2010, 06:37 PM

Just got my pics posted, along with (I promise) the last of my dumb questions : ). The album is
called My 1 & Only Luger.

Don M · 08-13-2010, 08:28 PM

I don't know where your photos are.

You are describing the thumb safety found on all Lugers. The sear safety is a device added in 1934 to most police Lugers. It consists of a leaf spring attached to the left side of the frame with a rivet. See the attached photo.

The I. designates Wesermünde.

When the barrel was replaced, the new barrel was stamped with the serial number of the frame.

casusc · 08-13-2010, 10:33 PM

Thank you, Don. My pics are on p. 7 of albums-called My 1 & Only Luger. It does have the sear safety, BTW, just like the photo you sent me. Cop gun it is.

08-06-2010, 12:29 AM	#1
casusc User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need your help. I'm relatively new to this and am in awe of the weapons in this site. I have an old Luger bought yrs. ago in a gun show and would really appreciate some clarification of it's origin. The slide is stamped DWM. The serial # is 3439 and it appears in several places, incl. just 39 on the disassembly lever, so I guess it was made from one set of parts. The # 47 appears on the slide, perpend. to the DWM logo, as well as several other places. On the chamber, right above the trigger is a symbol of a bird with a 6 under the wings. I found it in the listing as #33 in the descriptions. This symbol is stamped right below the # 74. Above the front of the trigger guard, right before the barrel starts, is the serial # again and a stamped symbol that resembles a sickle but I think it's a cursive letter "n". On the aft end of the trigger guard, before the handle, is a numeric mark that didn't stamp well then right next to it is SAC. CA (tell me it's not Sacramento, Cal.!). Finally, on the fore end of the stock is a bold S. followed by a slightly fainter Sta. I. then a smaller 291 If any of you could decipher all of this info and tell me what it means, aside from DWM which I know, it would be very useful and educational for me. Thank you in advance for any help!

08-06-2010, 08:17 AM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	With the SAC.CA. import mark, it could be a 'VoPo' (East German police) Luger. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

08-06-2010, 02:54 PM	#5
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Is there a date stamped on the top of the chamber? Is there a crown over N stamped on the left side of the chamber? __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-13-2010, 12:00 AM	#6
casusc User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To Don Yes, there's a N with a crown above the s/n (3439) but no date on top of the chamber, aside from a 47 that appears next to the DWM and on the slide. Is that 47 a date?

08-13-2010, 01:13 PM	#8
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Photos will still be helpful but, from your descriptions, the following can be said: As Marc observed, the full serial number of the pistol is 3439n. The letter suffix beneath the number on the front of the frame is part of the full number. The number 39 you see stamped on some of the small parts indicates these parts are original to the gun. The number 47 stamped on parts of the toggle train indicate it is from another gun. This pistol is therefore mismatched which will reduce its value among collectors as does the import stamp. The full serial number and lack of a date stamped on top of the chamber indicate this pistol was manufactured by DWM (Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken) in 1924 or 1925 and left the factory with a .30-cal. barrel. It was purchased by the Prussian state police and rebarrelled for them in 9-mm by Simson & Co. as indicated by the eagle/6 stamp. There may be similar stamps on the barrel. As others have noted, the pistol was issued to the Schutzpolizei of the Prussian administrative district of Stade, specifically the police of the port city of Wesermünde which is now part of Bremerhaven (HWIS Chapter 9). It was Luger #291 in their inventory. You have not indicated whether the pistol has or had a sear safety or not. If it does, it probably remained in police service in Wesermünde/Bremerhaven throughout WWII. If it never had one, it was probably transferred to the military in 1934-36 along with its owner. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-06-2010, 12:51 AM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Hi, Welcome to the forum! Pictures help alot... The nomenclature you use is not what the parts are actually called, so that makes interpretation harder. You probably have a Luger made of a mix of parts from a couple of guns. The full serial number should appear on the front of the frame above the trigger guard. It will be a one to five digit number with a cursive script letter under it in many cased. These form the full s/n of the gun. example 1234x. The full numeric digits should be on the left front side of the receiver, and the bottom rear of the barrel. This varies from period to period, and between manufacturers, so I'm giving you general guidance. The last 2 digits of the serial number should then appear on many fitted parts. You mention numbers from different guns. The Eagle/6 mark is an inspector mark used at the Simson factory in Suhl. They rebuilt WW-I lugers, so your gun or parts of it may have gone through their rebuild process. I believe that the SAC. CA is probably an import mark, but would need to see it. It does likely mean "Sacramento, California". The "S Sta. I. 291" is a police unit marking. http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/police_unit_marks.html lists the history and markings of units. Yours is from Stade district. Many guns were imported from assembled parts in the past 20 years. Your gun may have been an East German gun. There are proof marks that they used that might help identify that. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-06-2010, 01:20 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	S.Sta. Prussia Schutzpolizei Stade Good info abouve, although he meant that the serial number would be on the the Left side of the receiver and bottom of the barrel and front of the frame. Ed

08-13-2010, 12:14 AM	#7
casusc User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you, all, for your valuable info. Seems my luger is from Prussia, Stade dist. and was a polizei service weapon. Can I assume, from the link you sent me, that "S Sta. I 291" was from the 1920s? Marc, you're absolutely correct about pics. I need to take some decent ones and wil submit soon.

08-13-2010, 05:24 PM	#9
casusc User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks again, you've been very helpful. My luger has a sear safety (gesichert stamped on it) so it was a cop piece, as the S. Sta. indicates. What does the I. after Sta. (before the 291) mean? I'm not too worried about the 47 toggle indicating it's mixed, not looking to sell it. All the other parts are 3439, incl. the barrel. You mention it was originally a .30 cal. and rebarreled for 9mm. Why then, does the frame (in 3 places) s/n match the barrel s/n? Just curious. I took some closeups today and will post them and a full shot as well. From what you fellows have educated me on, I didn't do too badly for $250, did I? That's what I paid at the gun show. I appreciate the info.

08-13-2010, 06:37 PM	#10
casusc User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just got my pics posted, along with (I promise) the last of my dumb questions : ). The album is called My 1 & Only Luger.

08-13-2010, 08:28 PM	#11
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	I don't know where your photos are. You are describing the thumb safety found on all Lugers. The sear safety is a device added in 1934 to most police Lugers. It consists of a leaf spring attached to the left side of the frame with a rivet. See the attached photo. The I. designates Wesermünde. When the barrel was replaced, the new barrel was stamped with the serial number of the frame. Attached Images __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-13-2010, 10:33 PM	#12
casusc User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you, Don. My pics are on p. 7 of albums-called My 1 & Only Luger. It does have the sear safety, BTW, just like the photo you sent me. Cop gun it is.