Newbie needs help

D. Ricks · 07-26-2010, 08:06 AM

Hello, Im new to the forum. I mainly collect Third Reich but just picked up a 1914 DWM that I would love to get some information on. It has a sear safety but not a magazine safety and no police markings that I can tell. The holster is a Franz Cobau 1935 dated with sunburst K and matching serial to the gun on it. It also came with 2- matching numbered wood bottom magazines and matching serial numbered take down tool. Were there any police lugers without police markings on them. The gun seems to have original finish and is near mint which doesn't seem right for a 1914 DWM in a 1935 holster. Any help would be appreciated.

D. Ricks · 07-26-2010, 08:12 AM

A couple more pictures. The bottom of the barrel is marked Bo 29 over the serial number. Sorry the pictures are not better.

DavidJayUden · 07-26-2010, 08:30 AM

I've got my doubts about this one. For one the straw coloring does not look to be 90 years old, etc. I'm guessing that it is restored however lots of good photos are necessary before I go too far out on that limb.
Do the suffixes on the magazines match up to the one on the frame in front of the trigger guard?
It does look VERY nice, and welcome to the forum.
dju

D. Ricks · 07-26-2010, 08:49 AM

Thank you. The pictures are not good so I'll try and post better ones. There is no letter suffix. Im assuming according to net search it was in the first 10,000 serial number group. The gun had old cosmoline inside and out. The finish looks to be original to me but Im no expert. All edges and stampings are crisp.

D. Ricks · 07-26-2010, 09:08 AM

I hope these are better. Its hard to pick up the strawing color. Thanks

Norme · 07-26-2010, 09:30 AM

Hi Dail, Welcome to the forum. Your latest photos seem to show that the barrel serial numbers have halos. If this is so then your gun is in remarkable original condition. Congratulations on your nice find! Regards, Norm

tau-delt · 07-26-2010, 09:31 AM

I like the second set of pictures much better. Straw looks good to me and I'm seeing a nice halo on the barrel.

mrerick · 07-26-2010, 10:50 AM

Hi,

The "Bo29" refers to Boehler Steel. It's known to be found on some 1914 Lugers.

Immediately below the serial number on the frame in front of the trigger, there are two marks. The left one is a scratch. Is the other mark a scratch also, or is this a lower case letter? If it's a letter it's part of the serial number. 6161x ....

In 1916, the sear bar was "relieved" to allow the gun to be unloaded with the safety on. Your pistol has the relief cut visible on your second posted photo. When the decision to relieve the sear was made, there were, of course, many Lugers in the field. The order included a directive to return existing guns to have the sear modified. The tooling marks on your sear look like your gun could have been one of those so modified.

Your gun is in remarkable and beautiful condition. It looks like there is still some cosmoline or grease coating parts. As you give it a good cleaning, be thankful for it's help preserving your Luger.

I've gotten some of those inexpensive cotton "string" gloves that are now available. They are ideal for handling my guns since they keep the finger oils off the finish. They are so cheap that when they get dirty, I just throw them away.

You didn't show the front of the holster. If it has a post in the flap that the strap pushes down on to hold things, it's a police holster. If it's a buckle, it is a military design. I can't make out the interior of the sunburst, I believe that it is a police proof.

So, very possible that this was a WW-I gun that was reworked (to add the sear safety) and assigned to the police during the Wiemar era. It's so well preserved that I'd guess it was held by someone in the hierarchy rather than a field officer.

Marc

D. Ricks · 07-26-2010, 12:32 PM

The 2 marks are small scratches. There is no suffix letter. Those are halos in pictures and on the gun. Like I said there was cosmoline all over the out side and the inside. My question is were there any police guns that did not have police markings on them, There are no markings on outside of gun other than a typical 1914 DWM Luger. It has a sear safety but no cut on the frame. Is that normal? The only mark that I have a question about is inside the frame on the flat in front of the trigger K&B. Was the information I found on the net correct that the first 10,000 guns had no suffix letter. I want to thank everyone on the forum for your help on this gun. The sunburst has a K in the middle. Thanks Norm,Dave and Marc.

Don M · 07-26-2010, 12:46 PM

D.,

There were many Lugers issued to the Gemeindepolizei (small town uniformed police) in about 1935 and most of these do not have police property markings. The holster is consistent with this. Welcome to the forum.

suum cuique · 07-26-2010, 01:13 PM

-Matching numbers Luger,
-2 #-matching mags,
-#-matching holster,
-#-matching tool.
Awesome!

DavidJayUden · 07-26-2010, 01:30 PM

While I'm slowly warming to the straw being orig. I'd really like to see close-ups of the 2 mag. #'s and the front frame # as I'm suspecting re-issue mags. I'm doubting that the orig. 1914 mags. stayed with the gun through WW1 and police re-issue.
But I have to admit that so far it is looking very nice.
And a question for other collectors: what conditions are necessary to preserve straw coloring? Is the typical deterioration a result of time alone, hand wear, rust, oils, etc?
dju

Edward Tinker · 07-26-2010, 02:01 PM

Looks good to me.

I have a 1917, one a wood original magazine, the other an aluminum magazine, both have matching serial number.

I have seen several 2 matching mag WW1 guns with an army + and then a 1 and 2 added later.

Ed

DavidJayUden · 07-26-2010, 02:36 PM

Ed:
On your 1917 did they add the suffix to the alloy mag?
dju

Edward Tinker · 07-26-2010, 02:42 PM

no, you don't usually see suffixes on police gun mags

D. Ricks · 07-26-2010, 04:00 PM

Here are pictures of the mags and front serial # dju. Took these in the bright sunlight.

There are a couple small scratches by serial #.They are nickle and look like originals I found on line searching this gun. The # 2 mag's base is darker but the numbers stamp look the same. Does anyone know what the K&B stamp in the frame means? Thanks for all the info. and compliments. Like I said I mainly collect Third Reich guns etc. but could not pass on this one. Thanks to dju,Andy,Don and Ed. Regards Dail

mrerick · 07-26-2010, 04:37 PM

A picture would help identify the "K" and "B" inside the frame, but they are most likely inspector stamps, applied by individual inspectors as the Luger went through it's manufacturing steps.

Later in WW-II Mauser did away with this system, and began using an intertwined "WR" inspection stamp.

Marc

D. Ricks · 07-26-2010, 04:45 PM

Here it is Marc. Thanks Dail

mrerick · 07-26-2010, 04:50 PM

I don't think that those are inspector marks, but must defer to those with more experience...

Marc

DavidJayUden · 07-26-2010, 05:18 PM

I guess my thoughts are that I'm not going to get quite as spendy for a gun with magazines later issued to the gun as I would for a gun with it's original magazines, with the correct suffix, where applicable. To me the later Police re-issue mags. are along the line of matching VOPO mags.
But then maybe I'm just being a stick-in-the-mud. It does happen.
dju

07-26-2010, 08:06 AM	#1
D. Ricks User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Apopka,Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Newbie needs help Hello, Im new to the forum. I mainly collect Third Reich but just picked up a 1914 DWM that I would love to get some information on. It has a sear safety but not a magazine safety and no police markings that I can tell. The holster is a Franz Cobau 1935 dated with sunburst K and matching serial to the gun on it. It also came with 2- matching numbered wood bottom magazines and matching serial numbered take down tool. Were there any police lugers without police markings on them. The gun seems to have original finish and is near mint which doesn't seem right for a 1914 DWM in a 1935 holster. Any help would be appreciated. Attached Thumbnails

07-26-2010, 08:12 AM	#2
D. Ricks User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Apopka,Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A couple more pictures. The bottom of the barrel is marked Bo 29 over the serial number. Sorry the pictures are not better. Attached Thumbnails

07-26-2010, 09:08 AM	#5
D. Ricks User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Apopka,Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I hope these are better. Its hard to pick up the strawing color. Thanks Attached Thumbnails

07-26-2010, 09:31 AM	#7
tau-delt User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 106 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts	I like the second set of pictures much better. Straw looks good to me and I'm seeing a nice halo on the barrel. __________________ dave

07-26-2010, 12:32 PM	#9
D. Ricks User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Apopka,Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The 2 marks are small scratches. There is no suffix letter. Those are halos in pictures and on the gun. Like I said there was cosmoline all over the out side and the inside. My question is were there any police guns that did not have police markings on them, There are no markings on outside of gun other than a typical 1914 DWM Luger. It has a sear safety but no cut on the frame. Is that normal? The only mark that I have a question about is inside the frame on the flat in front of the trigger K&B. Was the information I found on the net correct that the first 10,000 guns had no suffix letter. I want to thank everyone on the forum for your help on this gun. The sunburst has a K in the middle. Thanks Norm,Dave and Marc. Attached Thumbnails

07-26-2010, 08:30 AM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I've got my doubts about this one. For one the straw coloring does not look to be 90 years old, etc. I'm guessing that it is restored however lots of good photos are necessary before I go too far out on that limb. Do the suffixes on the magazines match up to the one on the frame in front of the trigger guard? It does look VERY nice, and welcome to the forum. dju

07-26-2010, 08:49 AM	#4
D. Ricks User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Apopka,Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you. The pictures are not good so I'll try and post better ones. There is no letter suffix. Im assuming according to net search it was in the first 10,000 serial number group. The gun had old cosmoline inside and out. The finish looks to be original to me but Im no expert. All edges and stampings are crisp.

07-26-2010, 09:30 AM	#6
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Dail, Welcome to the forum. Your latest photos seem to show that the barrel serial numbers have halos. If this is so then your gun is in remarkable original condition. Congratulations on your nice find! Regards, Norm

07-26-2010, 10:50 AM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Hi, The "Bo29" refers to Boehler Steel. It's known to be found on some 1914 Lugers. Immediately below the serial number on the frame in front of the trigger, there are two marks. The left one is a scratch. Is the other mark a scratch also, or is this a lower case letter? If it's a letter it's part of the serial number. 6161x .... In 1916, the sear bar was "relieved" to allow the gun to be unloaded with the safety on. Your pistol has the relief cut visible on your second posted photo. When the decision to relieve the sear was made, there were, of course, many Lugers in the field. The order included a directive to return existing guns to have the sear modified. The tooling marks on your sear look like your gun could have been one of those so modified. Your gun is in remarkable and beautiful condition. It looks like there is still some cosmoline or grease coating parts. As you give it a good cleaning, be thankful for it's help preserving your Luger. I've gotten some of those inexpensive cotton "string" gloves that are now available. They are ideal for handling my guns since they keep the finger oils off the finish. They are so cheap that when they get dirty, I just throw them away. You didn't show the front of the holster. If it has a post in the flap that the strap pushes down on to hold things, it's a police holster. If it's a buckle, it is a military design. I can't make out the interior of the sunburst, I believe that it is a police proof. So, very possible that this was a WW-I gun that was reworked (to add the sear safety) and assigned to the police during the Wiemar era. It's so well preserved that I'd guess it was held by someone in the hierarchy rather than a field officer. Marc

07-26-2010, 12:46 PM	#10
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	D., There were many Lugers issued to the Gemeindepolizei (small town uniformed police) in about 1935 and most of these do not have police property markings. The holster is consistent with this. Welcome to the forum. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

07-26-2010, 01:13 PM	#11
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 108 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	very, very nice rig! -Matching numbers Luger, -2 #-matching mags, -#-matching holster, -#-matching tool. Awesome! __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

07-26-2010, 01:30 PM	#12
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	While I'm slowly warming to the straw being orig. I'd really like to see close-ups of the 2 mag. #'s and the front frame # as I'm suspecting re-issue mags. I'm doubting that the orig. 1914 mags. stayed with the gun through WW1 and police re-issue. But I have to admit that so far it is looking very nice. And a question for other collectors: what conditions are necessary to preserve straw coloring? Is the typical deterioration a result of time alone, hand wear, rust, oils, etc? dju

07-26-2010, 02:01 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Looks good to me. I have a 1917, one a wood original magazine, the other an aluminum magazine, both have matching serial number. I have seen several 2 matching mag WW1 guns with an army + and then a 1 and 2 added later. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-26-2010, 02:36 PM	#14
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Ed: On your 1917 did they add the suffix to the alloy mag? dju

07-26-2010, 02:42 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	no, you don't usually see suffixes on police gun mags Attached Thumbnails __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-26-2010, 04:00 PM	#16
D. Ricks User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Apopka,Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are pictures of the mags and front serial # dju. Took these in the bright sunlight. There are a couple small scratches by serial #.They are nickle and look like originals I found on line searching this gun. The # 2 mag's base is darker but the numbers stamp look the same. Does anyone know what the K&B stamp in the frame means? Thanks for all the info. and compliments. Like I said I mainly collect Third Reich guns etc. but could not pass on this one. Thanks to dju,Andy,Don and Ed. Regards Dail Attached Thumbnails

07-26-2010, 04:37 PM	#17
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	A picture would help identify the "K" and "B" inside the frame, but they are most likely inspector stamps, applied by individual inspectors as the Luger went through it's manufacturing steps. Later in WW-II Mauser did away with this system, and began using an intertwined "WR" inspection stamp. Marc

07-26-2010, 04:45 PM	#18
D. Ricks User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Apopka,Fl. Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here it is Marc. Thanks Dail Attached Thumbnails

07-26-2010, 04:50 PM	#19
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	I don't think that those are inspector marks, but must defer to those with more experience... Marc

07-26-2010, 05:18 PM	#20
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I guess my thoughts are that I'm not going to get quite as spendy for a gun with magazines later issued to the gun as I would for a gun with it's original magazines, with the correct suffix, where applicable. To me the later Police re-issue mags. are along the line of matching VOPO mags. But then maybe I'm just being a stick-in-the-mud. It does happen. dju