C&R Holder Needed

Conny · 05-29-2010, 12:45 PM

Gentlemen,
I sold one of my Automag pistols and am looking for a C&R holder who can send it to another C&R holder in California. My usual gun dealer receives from California but sends nothing into California. I live in Northern Virginia and can deliver the pistol to the C&R if local.

Thank you

John Sabato · 05-29-2010, 02:42 PM

I haven't checked lately, but as far as I remember, the AUTOMAG is not a C&R qualified pistol It has to appear on the ATF list of Curios and Relics. If it does not appear there, then a C&R license holder cannot ship it or receive it.

You will need a person with a Federal Firearms License to do what you want to do, and so will the purchaser at his end.

Conny · 05-29-2010, 03:24 PM

John, Actually, it is listed on the ATF Publication 5300.11, Revised December 2007. The C&R list has the pistol under Section II with the name "Auto-Mag".

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-11.pdf

However, if there is a regular FFL holder that can ship this for me, let me know your price and when you can ship.

azlaw · 05-29-2010, 03:32 PM

Automag isn't a C&R gun, was made sort of 1970+.

As another minor point, a C&R license is a collector's license, and cannot be used with the intent of transfering the gun to somebody other than the licensee. A C&R who does not plan to fund an increase in the size of the gun collection of a local criminal defense attorney must not act as a gun dealer. A 03 C&R cannot "receive" any GCA/NFA controlled gun for transfer to sombody else (except another licensee), only 01 FFLs can do this. BATF is looking for this!

H

zinfull · 05-29-2010, 03:34 PM

Conny

All you have to do is have the person who bought the pistol in CA find a FFL01 to take the transfer from a non FFL. You can ship the gun yourself via FedEx or UPS. It has to go to a FF01 in CA to be transferred.

jerry

lugerholsterrepair · 05-29-2010, 03:44 PM

I am sure state laws vary but I have the understanding..... a license is needed to recieve a gun..not ship one.

Jerry Burney

rhinemann · 05-29-2010, 03:45 PM

Conny,
C & R hand guns have to be shipped to an 01 FFL into the state of Calif. and do a dros to the buyer. C&R to C&R hand guns transfers by mail are not allowed. Must use a 01 FFL to send to Calif. Only C&R TO C&R long rifle are allowed in Calif. by mail.
Jeffrey

Conny · 05-29-2010, 03:48 PM

Azlaw, I'm going going to get into a pi$$ing match. It is listed if you bothered to check the AFT list link I posted. AGE is NOT the ONLY criteria to be C&R eligible.

Zinfull, I'll see if he can find a dealer who will accept from an individual. Being California though, that's probably not allowed. Thanks for the advice.

Thank you rhinemann. I'm looking for a FFL holder now.

Edward Tinker · 05-29-2010, 03:53 PM

That is correct; there are many non-50 yr old guns classified as C&R, such as the East German Makarov's, made in the 60's and 70's.

Ed

azlaw · 05-29-2010, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conny

....It is listed if you bothered to check the AFT list link I posted...

I stand corrected. Didn't see your link until after I posted (post times are minutes apart), you are correct that some Automags are designated C&R. I knew that CZ-83s had somehow been designated as C&R in 9x18, in spite of not being 50 years old.

H

Conny · 05-29-2010, 04:30 PM

OK gentlemen, after calling 16 gun dealers in Northern Virginia (I never knew there were so many), I finally landed on 1 that will ship to California.

Is it too much paperwork? Red Tape? Restriction?....What keeps dealers from shipping to California. I rarely see any gun dealers on GunBroker that will ship there also. What is the "hassle?"

Azlaw, I wasn't trying to be rude but do apologize if I worded my sentence too strong.

alvin · 05-29-2010, 04:30 PM

"Auto-Mag pistols, calibers .44 AMP and .357 AMP, mfg. and/or assembled by Auto-Mag Corporation, TDE, OMC"

is C&R by ATF definition. See "SECTION II: Firearms Classified As Curios Or Relics Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44" (page 18 of PDF):

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-11.pdf

zinfull · 05-29-2010, 06:34 PM

The state of CA pass a law

About CFLC

As of July 1, 2008, California Penal Code Section 12072(f)(1) prohibits all Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), other than Type 03 or 06 FFLs, from shipping firearms to an FFL in California unless, prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearms obtains a verification approval number from the California Department of Justice (CADOJ) Bureau of Firearms. This includes transfers that occur at gun shows.

This made many FFL01s say forget CA. because they do not want to register in the program. It is easy and does not cost but a few minutes. It is just another verification that CA put to verify the FFL dealer has a CA business license. It does not apply to individual personnel.

There is not a law requiring a FFL to FFL shipment. Most dealers require this as house policy because they are scared of the ATF.

Also because it is a C&R this applies

Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale

Effective January 1, 2001, no handgun may be manufactured within California, imported into California for sale, lent, given, kept for sale, or offered/exposed for sale unless that handgun model has passed firing, safety, and drop tests and is certified for sale in California by the Department of Justice. Private party transfers, curio/relic handguns, certain single-action revolvers, and pawn/consignment returns are exempt from this requirement.

jerry

tharpo · 05-29-2010, 06:42 PM

Conny,
Where in California are you trying to ship the gun?

Tom

Conny · 05-29-2010, 08:39 PM

The buyer lives in Fremont, Ca. I sent him an email mentioning I found an FFL holder and will ship to his nearest FFL holder.
I know he's busy today and will hear from him tomorrow.

azlaw · 05-29-2010, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conny

Azlaw, I wasn't trying to be rude but do apologize if I worded my sentence too strong.

Not a bit of offense taken, it was I who was incorrect. A pleasure to be on a gentlemans' forum though!

H

tharpo · 05-29-2010, 10:31 PM

Conny,
Have the buyer send, fax, or email you a copy of the FFL 01 he is going to use. As Zinfull has stated, you can send the gun to the address on the FFL yourself. Enclose a copy of the FFL in with the gun when you ship. His FFL will do the California state paperwork when it arrives and there will be a 10 day waiting period.

Tom

Conny · 05-29-2010, 11:13 PM

Thanks Tom. The FFL holder I found here will ship to California. The buyer will pick the pistol up from his nearest FFL holder or, if my FFL holder can ship to the buyers C&R address, that would be fine also.

I don't think I'll be selling firearms to people in California after this. Never had this problem with any other State.

tharpo · 05-30-2010, 12:22 AM

I think it would be a shame for you (or anyone else) to stop shipping to California because the only ones to be penalized are fellow collectors of which there are many on this Forum from Ca. The problem is the misinformation and the anti California sentiment out there. Just like any other state, it is fully legal for you to ship your gun to a California FFL 01.

policeluger · 05-30-2010, 02:12 AM

ditto.....

05-29-2010, 12:45 PM	#1
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	C&R Holder Needed Gentlemen, I sold one of my Automag pistols and am looking for a C&R holder who can send it to another C&R holder in California. My usual gun dealer receives from California but sends nothing into California. I live in Northern Virginia and can deliver the pistol to the C&R if local. Thank you __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

05-29-2010, 02:42 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Sorry Conny, but you can't do that. I haven't checked lately, but as far as I remember, the AUTOMAG is not a C&R qualified pistol It has to appear on the ATF list of Curios and Relics. If it does not appear there, then a C&R license holder cannot ship it or receive it. You will need a person with a Federal Firearms License to do what you want to do, and so will the purchaser at his end. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-29-2010, 03:24 PM	#3
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	John, Actually, it is listed on the ATF Publication 5300.11, Revised December 2007. The C&R list has the pistol under Section II with the name "Auto-Mag". http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-11.pdf However, if there is a regular FFL holder that can ship this for me, let me know your price and when you can ship. __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

05-29-2010, 03:44 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	I am sure state laws vary but I have the understanding..... a license is needed to recieve a gun..not ship one. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-29-2010, 03:48 PM	#8
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Azlaw, I'm going going to get into a pi$$ing match. It is listed if you bothered to check the AFT list link I posted. AGE is NOT the ONLY criteria to be C&R eligible. Zinfull, I'll see if he can find a dealer who will accept from an individual. Being California though, that's probably not allowed. Thanks for the advice. Thank you rhinemann. I'm looking for a FFL holder now. __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

05-29-2010, 03:32 PM	#4
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 207 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Automag isn't a C&R gun, was made sort of 1970+. As another minor point, a C&R license is a collector's license, and cannot be used with the intent of transfering the gun to somebody other than the licensee. A C&R who does not plan to fund an increase in the size of the gun collection of a local criminal defense attorney must not act as a gun dealer. A 03 C&R cannot "receive" any GCA/NFA controlled gun for transfer to sombody else (except another licensee), only 01 FFLs can do this. BATF is looking for this! H

05-29-2010, 03:34 PM	#5
zinfull Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sonoma County CA Posts: 244 Thanks: 5 Thanked 34 Times in 17 Posts	Conny All you have to do is have the person who bought the pistol in CA find a FFL01 to take the transfer from a non FFL. You can ship the gun yourself via FedEx or UPS. It has to go to a FF01 in CA to be transferred. jerry

05-29-2010, 03:45 PM	#7
rhinemann User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Calif. Posts: 68 Thanks: 14 Thanked 25 Times in 13 Posts	Conny, C & R hand guns have to be shipped to an 01 FFL into the state of Calif. and do a dros to the buyer. C&R to C&R hand guns transfers by mail are not allowed. Must use a 01 FFL to send to Calif. Only C&R TO C&R long rifle are allowed in Calif. by mail. Jeffrey

05-29-2010, 03:53 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	That is correct; there are many non-50 yr old guns classified as C&R, such as the East German Makarov's, made in the 60's and 70's. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-29-2010, 04:30 PM	#11
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	OK gentlemen, after calling 16 gun dealers in Northern Virginia (I never knew there were so many), I finally landed on 1 that will ship to California. Is it too much paperwork? Red Tape? Restriction?....What keeps dealers from shipping to California. I rarely see any gun dealers on GunBroker that will ship there also. What is the "hassle?" Azlaw, I wasn't trying to be rude but do apologize if I worded my sentence too strong. __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

05-29-2010, 04:30 PM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	"Auto-Mag pistols, calibers .44 AMP and .357 AMP, mfg. and/or assembled by Auto-Mag Corporation, TDE, OMC" is C&R by ATF definition. See "SECTION II: Firearms Classified As Curios Or Relics Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44" (page 18 of PDF): http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-11.pdf

05-29-2010, 06:34 PM	#13
zinfull Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sonoma County CA Posts: 244 Thanks: 5 Thanked 34 Times in 17 Posts	The state of CA pass a law About CFLC As of July 1, 2008, California Penal Code Section 12072(f)(1) prohibits all Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), other than Type 03 or 06 FFLs, from shipping firearms to an FFL in California unless, prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearms obtains a verification approval number from the California Department of Justice (CADOJ) Bureau of Firearms. This includes transfers that occur at gun shows. This made many FFL01s say forget CA. because they do not want to register in the program. It is easy and does not cost but a few minutes. It is just another verification that CA put to verify the FFL dealer has a CA business license. It does not apply to individual personnel. There is not a law requiring a FFL to FFL shipment. Most dealers require this as house policy because they are scared of the ATF. Also because it is a C&R this applies Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale Effective January 1, 2001, no handgun may be manufactured within California, imported into California for sale, lent, given, kept for sale, or offered/exposed for sale unless that handgun model has passed firing, safety, and drop tests and is certified for sale in California by the Department of Justice. Private party transfers, curio/relic handguns, certain single-action revolvers, and pawn/consignment returns are exempt from this requirement. jerry

05-29-2010, 06:42 PM	#14
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 543 Thanks: 118 Thanked 383 Times in 158 Posts	Conny, Where in California are you trying to ship the gun? Tom

05-29-2010, 08:39 PM	#15
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	The buyer lives in Fremont, Ca. I sent him an email mentioning I found an FFL holder and will ship to his nearest FFL holder. I know he's busy today and will hear from him tomorrow. __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

05-29-2010, 10:31 PM	#17
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 543 Thanks: 118 Thanked 383 Times in 158 Posts	Conny, Have the buyer send, fax, or email you a copy of the FFL 01 he is going to use. As Zinfull has stated, you can send the gun to the address on the FFL yourself. Enclose a copy of the FFL in with the gun when you ship. His FFL will do the California state paperwork when it arrives and there will be a 10 day waiting period. Tom

05-29-2010, 11:13 PM	#18
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Thanks Tom. The FFL holder I found here will ship to California. The buyer will pick the pistol up from his nearest FFL holder or, if my FFL holder can ship to the buyers C&R address, that would be fine also. I don't think I'll be selling firearms to people in California after this. Never had this problem with any other State. __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

05-30-2010, 12:22 AM	#19
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 543 Thanks: 118 Thanked 383 Times in 158 Posts	I think it would be a shame for you (or anyone else) to stop shipping to California because the only ones to be penalized are fellow collectors of which there are many on this Forum from Ca. The problem is the misinformation and the anti California sentiment out there. Just like any other state, it is fully legal for you to ship your gun to a California FFL 01.

05-30-2010, 02:12 AM	#20
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	ditto.....