1913 DWM P.08 help...Now with pics!

Wolfsburg · 02-07-2010, 10:25 PM

Hello gentlemen!

I'm very much an acolyte when it comes to Lugers but I ran across one at a local gunstore and was wondering if you all could offer some insights or advice regarding it. The pistol appears to be a 1913 DWM and all numbers I can see match, including the magazine. The magazine appears to be all metal (with a metal, not wooden "pull"). Condition of the pistol I would say is perhaps Fair-Good. Finish appears original, perhaps 90% or so, with most of the bluing loss being around the muzzle. Strawing is visible on the trigger, but a good bit is worn off. The front grip strap has "SDI" stamped into it. I know its hard to offer a valuation without pics, but what exactly am I looking at and what would be a rough estimate as to what its worth?

alanint · 02-08-2010, 05:31 AM

The magazine is not original to the gun and the fact that it matches would make me suspitious of the balance of the gun.
I am not familiar with "SDI". A photo of this mark would be helpful. It may be a police rework, (which would possibly explain the matching metal base mag) or it could be an import mark.

What are they asking for it?

policeluger · 02-08-2010, 09:05 AM

Is it "S. D. 1.".....does it have a police sear safety.....sounds like a police gun, pictures would help....here goes foot in mouth but could be worth over $1,200. if its a nice clean police......hope this is of some help and welcome to the brotherhood.

Don M · 02-08-2010, 11:55 AM

I would not be suspicious of the mag. Most police Lugers had their mags replaced one or more times during their service lives of up to over 30 years.

I would be very interested in knowing the serial number of this pistol, the exact grip strap marking, including all periods, numbers, etc. and whether or not the pistol has or had sear and mag safeties. If the marking is S.D.I. , it is from the Essen command of the Schutzpolizei of the Prussian administrative district of Düsseldorf (HWIS, Chap. 7).

tomaustin · 02-08-2010, 09:39 PM

of the history of our favorite weapon...many thanks for the work you and all the other authors on this site do to educate and assist the rest of us...tom

Wolfsburg · 02-09-2010, 12:37 AM

Thanks all so much for the help so far. Don, I'm not sure if it has the sear or mag safeties but the serial is 6853n(?, I'm not totally sure of the suffix due to the script). The store says they'd take $1200 but I wasn't sure if that was a good deal or not. I thought the strap markings were interesting and thought this one might be a little unusual. I think all they know is that it is a Luger.

Don M · 02-09-2010, 09:00 AM

If you buy it or get more information about it, I would be interested in knowing more, particularly the exact marking.

Wolfsburg · 02-10-2010, 12:38 AM

I certainly will, Don! I'm going to try and look at it again this weekend if it's still there.

Wolfsburg · 02-13-2010, 10:12 PM

Looked again and the pistol does not appear to have a mag or sear safety. The marking on the front strap definitely appears to be SDI or perhaps SD1 but there are no other markings there although it did appear that the "SDI" might've been stamped over an earlier marking. It was hard to tell for sure. The left side has 3 Imperial proofs. I didn't disassemble the gun but all external numbers appear to match.

Wolfsburg · 02-21-2010, 09:37 PM

Oh, and it did not have any provisions for shoulder stock...

Don M · 02-22-2010, 11:27 AM

The lack of a stock lug is correct for a 1913. If the pistol never had a sear or mag safety, it was probably transferred from the police to the military about 1935.

wlyon · 02-22-2010, 01:10 PM

Are you sure the proofs are on the left side? They should be on the right for a 1913 . When pointing the gun are the proofs on the right or left? Bill

Wolfsburg · 02-22-2010, 10:38 PM

That was a brain fart on my part. The proofs are indeed on the right side. The pistol was still there as of yesterday. I just can't decide whether to take the plunge on it or not.

Wolfsburg · 03-02-2010, 04:05 AM

Well, I did take the plunge and bought my first Luger for less than what they quoted earlier, out the door. It might be a dud, but it is mine!

I wasn't going to post until I had pics, but I am anyway. I'll try to get pics of it up hopefully by this weekend. The serial number is 6853a (not "n" as I said earlier). Upon closer inspection, it does appear to have had a sear safety installed once but it has been removed. Barrel is marked Bo 23, 8.83, and has the serial number. Bore appears to be nothing special, but I want to give it a good cleaning. Front of the trigger guard has a Crown/RC. The proofs on the right side appear to be XOF. The magazine is aluminum(?), matches, has a marking I can't identify, as well as a Weimar droop-winged eagle over 63. I'm guessing it might be a police replacement? The right grip panel simply has a "2" stamped into it, so it technically makes the pistol non-matching which was a bit of a disappointment. I'm hoping this was at least done in some official capacity. Could "2" be a serial from another gun or perhaps some indicator of a replacement piece or (hopefully not) an indicator of an aftermarket piece? The left grip panel does match with "53" stamped into it. The front grip strap does indeed have "S.D.I" stamped into it. Any comments or insights are appreciated. I'll try to get pics up soon!

Wolfsburg · 03-03-2010, 02:49 AM

Okay, I took a few crappy pics. Unfortunately the camera's flash really highlights the imperfections you can't really see with the naked eye. Lot's of rust freckling going on. I guess I need to clean up the pistol and get some good outside pics.

1913 DWM. You can see where the sear safety was

X,O,F proof markings

S.D.I marking

Bo 23 marking along with serial number

Unknown marking?

Serial number overstamping an existing number? Beneath that is an unknown marking and a droop-wing eagle over 63.

Flash obscures it somewhat, but there is a Crown/RC marking on the trigger guard

Gesichert

Some sort of proof on the left grip screw. It isn't on the right side screw

alanint · 03-03-2010, 05:28 AM

Your gun did once have a sear safety, which is now gone. The magazine does not appear to be a police issue grind and overstamp, but more like someone's attempt to force match a closely numbered mag to this gun.

Steinar · 03-03-2010, 07:00 AM

Neat proof mark on the grip screw.. Looks like an Erfurt mark.

From one of the pictures, the sear safety has clearly been removed. (I can sell you the part you are missing if interested). You can check if the sear bar has a hole in it, it could have been removed as a result of replaceing the sear.

Don M · 03-03-2010, 10:55 AM

Thanks for posting the photos which are really pretty good. The fact that the pistol once had a sear safety indicates it belonged in 1933-4 to the Schupo of Essen assigned to precinct duty (Revierpolizei). The fact that it was removed suggests, however, that it was reassigned to the military sometime after that, perhaps as early as 1935. If you replace the sear safety, you may destroy some of the history of the gun. An intact sear safety would be evidence that the gun remained in use by the police through WWII.

The lack of an inventory number following the S.D.I is very uncommon but not unheard of. The marking is probably Type 3 as defined in HWIS (conforming to the 1932 Prussian marking instructions) and the lack of an inventory number may indicate there was uncertainty about its future use - police or military. Other examples of S.D.I markings may be found in Table 7-2 of HWIS.

A very interesting pistol. I am glad you took the plunge!

Wolfsburg · 03-03-2010, 12:12 PM

Thanks for the replies! I really think the pistol looks better in hand than it does in the pics, but it is a warhorse.

In regards to adding a safety, I'll probably just leave it as-is.

What do you all think about the magazine? It does look like it has been renumbered, but is this something that could've been done in an "official" (Weimar or Nazi?) capacity or is it more likely done by someone stateside trying to "boost" the pistol a bit? Is there any way to know?

I forgot to take pictures of the grip panels, but as I mentioned earlier, the left side does match, but the right side simply has a "2" stamped into it. What is typically seen with replacement panels? Could this be an "official", period replacement or something done much later? Again, is there any way to know?

02-07-2010, 10:25 PM	#1
Wolfsburg User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1913 DWM P.08 help...Now with pics! Hello gentlemen! I'm very much an acolyte when it comes to Lugers but I ran across one at a local gunstore and was wondering if you all could offer some insights or advice regarding it. The pistol appears to be a 1913 DWM and all numbers I can see match, including the magazine. The magazine appears to be all metal (with a metal, not wooden "pull"). Condition of the pistol I would say is perhaps Fair-Good. Finish appears original, perhaps 90% or so, with most of the bluing loss being around the muzzle. Strawing is visible on the trigger, but a good bit is worn off. The front grip strap has "SDI" stamped into it. I know its hard to offer a valuation without pics, but what exactly am I looking at and what would be a rough estimate as to what its worth? Last edited by Wolfsburg; 03-03-2010 at 02:53 AM.

02-08-2010, 11:55 AM	#4
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	I would not be suspicious of the mag. Most police Lugers had their mags replaced one or more times during their service lives of up to over 30 years. I would be very interested in knowing the serial number of this pistol, the exact grip strap marking, including all periods, numbers, etc. and whether or not the pistol has or had sear and mag safeties. If the marking is S.D.I. , it is from the Essen command of the Schutzpolizei of the Prussian administrative district of Düsseldorf (HWIS, Chap. 7). __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

02-08-2010, 09:39 PM	#5
tomaustin Lifer X5 Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: texas Posts: 708 Thanks: 87 Thanked 522 Times in 201 Posts	don, i got your book last week..what a fine compendium of the history of our favorite weapon...many thanks for the work you and all the other authors on this site do to educate and assist the rest of us...tom

02-09-2010, 09:00 AM	#7
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	If you buy it or get more information about it, I would be interested in knowing more, particularly the exact marking. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

02-22-2010, 11:27 AM	#11
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	The lack of a stock lug is correct for a 1913. If the pistol never had a sear or mag safety, it was probably transferred from the police to the military about 1935. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

02-08-2010, 05:31 AM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The magazine is not original to the gun and the fact that it matches would make me suspitious of the balance of the gun. I am not familiar with "SDI". A photo of this mark would be helpful. It may be a police rework, (which would possibly explain the matching metal base mag) or it could be an import mark. What are they asking for it?

02-08-2010, 09:05 AM	#3
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Is it "S. D. 1.".....does it have a police sear safety.....sounds like a police gun, pictures would help....here goes foot in mouth but could be worth over $1,200. if its a nice clean police......hope this is of some help and welcome to the brotherhood.

02-09-2010, 12:37 AM	#6
Wolfsburg User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks all so much for the help so far. Don, I'm not sure if it has the sear or mag safeties but the serial is 6853n(?, I'm not totally sure of the suffix due to the script). The store says they'd take $1200 but I wasn't sure if that was a good deal or not. I thought the strap markings were interesting and thought this one might be a little unusual. I think all they know is that it is a Luger.

02-10-2010, 12:38 AM	#8
Wolfsburg User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I certainly will, Don! I'm going to try and look at it again this weekend if it's still there.

02-13-2010, 10:12 PM	#9
Wolfsburg User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looked again and the pistol does not appear to have a mag or sear safety. The marking on the front strap definitely appears to be SDI or perhaps SD1 but there are no other markings there although it did appear that the "SDI" might've been stamped over an earlier marking. It was hard to tell for sure. The left side has 3 Imperial proofs. I didn't disassemble the gun but all external numbers appear to match.

02-21-2010, 09:37 PM	#10
Wolfsburg User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oh, and it did not have any provisions for shoulder stock...

02-22-2010, 01:10 PM	#12
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,144 Thanked 2,531 Times in 943 Posts	Are you sure the proofs are on the left side? They should be on the right for a 1913 . When pointing the gun are the proofs on the right or left? Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

02-22-2010, 10:38 PM	#13
Wolfsburg User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	That was a brain fart on my part. The proofs are indeed on the right side. The pistol was still there as of yesterday. I just can't decide whether to take the plunge on it or not.

03-02-2010, 04:05 AM	#14
Wolfsburg User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, I did take the plunge and bought my first Luger for less than what they quoted earlier, out the door. It might be a dud, but it is mine! I wasn't going to post until I had pics, but I am anyway. I'll try to get pics of it up hopefully by this weekend. The serial number is 6853a (not "n" as I said earlier). Upon closer inspection, it does appear to have had a sear safety installed once but it has been removed. Barrel is marked Bo 23, 8.83, and has the serial number. Bore appears to be nothing special, but I want to give it a good cleaning. Front of the trigger guard has a Crown/RC. The proofs on the right side appear to be XOF. The magazine is aluminum(?), matches, has a marking I can't identify, as well as a Weimar droop-winged eagle over 63. I'm guessing it might be a police replacement? The right grip panel simply has a "2" stamped into it, so it technically makes the pistol non-matching which was a bit of a disappointment. I'm hoping this was at least done in some official capacity. Could "2" be a serial from another gun or perhaps some indicator of a replacement piece or (hopefully not) an indicator of an aftermarket piece? The left grip panel does match with "53" stamped into it. The front grip strap does indeed have "S.D.I" stamped into it. Any comments or insights are appreciated. I'll try to get pics up soon!

03-03-2010, 02:49 AM	#15
Wolfsburg User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Okay, I took a few crappy pics. Unfortunately the camera's flash really highlights the imperfections you can't really see with the naked eye. Lot's of rust freckling going on. I guess I need to clean up the pistol and get some good outside pics. 1913 DWM. You can see where the sear safety was X,O,F proof markings S.D.I marking Bo 23 marking along with serial number Unknown marking? Serial number overstamping an existing number? Beneath that is an unknown marking and a droop-wing eagle over 63. Flash obscures it somewhat, but there is a Crown/RC marking on the trigger guard Gesichert Some sort of proof on the left grip screw. It isn't on the right side screw

03-03-2010, 05:28 AM	#16
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Your gun did once have a sear safety, which is now gone. The magazine does not appear to be a police issue grind and overstamp, but more like someone's attempt to force match a closely numbered mag to this gun.

03-03-2010, 07:00 AM	#17
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Neat proof mark on the grip screw.. Looks like an Erfurt mark. From one of the pictures, the sear safety has clearly been removed. (I can sell you the part you are missing if interested). You can check if the sear bar has a hole in it, it could have been removed as a result of replaceing the sear. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

03-03-2010, 10:55 AM	#18
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Thanks for posting the photos which are really pretty good. The fact that the pistol once had a sear safety indicates it belonged in 1933-4 to the Schupo of Essen assigned to precinct duty (Revierpolizei). The fact that it was removed suggests, however, that it was reassigned to the military sometime after that, perhaps as early as 1935. If you replace the sear safety, you may destroy some of the history of the gun. An intact sear safety would be evidence that the gun remained in use by the police through WWII. The lack of an inventory number following the S.D.I is very uncommon but not unheard of. The marking is probably Type 3 as defined in HWIS (conforming to the 1932 Prussian marking instructions) and the lack of an inventory number may indicate there was uncertainty about its future use - police or military. Other examples of S.D.I markings may be found in Table 7-2 of HWIS. A very interesting pistol. I am glad you took the plunge! __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

03-03-2010, 12:12 PM	#19
Wolfsburg User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the replies! I really think the pistol looks better in hand than it does in the pics, but it is a warhorse. In regards to adding a safety, I'll probably just leave it as-is. What do you all think about the magazine? It does look like it has been renumbered, but is this something that could've been done in an "official" (Weimar or Nazi?) capacity or is it more likely done by someone stateside trying to "boost" the pistol a bit? Is there any way to know? I forgot to take pictures of the grip panels, but as I mentioned earlier, the left side does match, but the right side simply has a "2" stamped into it. What is typically seen with replacement panels? Could this be an "official", period replacement or something done much later? Again, is there any way to know?