A tired old Soldier… - Page 2

RichSr · 12-09-2009, 12:24 PM

I'm must be missing something, or just not up on police models enough. I see the slot on the side for the magazine safety but there doesn't appear to be the round hole in the frame above the mag release that would be needed to activate the safety. How about some info on this from the experts.

Vlim · 12-09-2009, 12:36 PM

Rich,

When the magazine safeties were abandoned, some were removed, with the holes left intact, others were simply clipped and others were neatly reworked (holes welded in). Depends on the police arsenal, the time and the budget, I guess.

RichSr · 12-09-2009, 12:43 PM

Thanks Gerben I hadn't heard of the holes being welded up. As they say, you learn something new every day.

ieyres · 12-09-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

That is an interesting mark on the bottom of the frame just forward of the trigger guard. Was that added in the UK when the gun was deactivated?

yep, thats the london proof mark for deactivation in 2005.

Don M · 12-09-2009, 05:36 PM

RichSr, you would not be able to see the hole in the frame for the mag safety as long as the side plate is on.

Dwight Gruber · 12-09-2009, 08:25 PM

You're right, the right receiver marks and barrel marks are pretty trashed.

Is there a 1920 property mark on the top of the receiver as well as a date?

Interesting that there was a mag safety but no sear safety.

--Dwight

Don M · 12-09-2009, 09:14 PM

Dwight, it may have had a sear safety at one time. The side plate apparently has a different serial number and may have been replaced after a sear safety was removed. It would be interesting to know what's under the side plate.

Dwight Gruber · 12-09-2009, 09:27 PM

Doesn't look like there is a rivet hole in the sear bar shelf

--Dwight

Don M · 12-10-2009, 12:55 PM

Dwight, I looked carefully at the photos but can't really tell. It appears that part of the shelf has been corroded away. Perhaps the owner will look to see if the shelf is still intact and if there is a hole where the rivet would have been. The photo below shows a Luger from which the sear safety has been removed. The hole on the right is where the rivet was. It is located where the shelf begins its taper back into the frame.

ieyres · 12-10-2009, 01:29 PM

Hi,

Just checked and i can't see any evidence of holes on the shelf, but its possible they could have been filled and the pitting masks this.

There is no 1920 property mark on the receiver just 1918.

hope that helps

Iain

Don M · 12-10-2009, 06:25 PM

If this pistol had a mag safety and no sear safety, it will be the first instance of that I have seen or heard of.

Douglas Jr. · 12-11-2009, 08:21 AM

Ian,

Very interesting story that came along with this pistol. Thanks for sharing!
I remember to have read something about Luger in use by Luftwaffe bombers aircrews during the first stages of the war. I think this is mention on John Walter's "The Luger Story". Most of the small pistols went to the fighters pilots, as the Bf-110 heavy fighters and bombers like the Ju-88 and He-111 had more room for bigger pistols.

As said above, I would put it in a bax, together with some Luftwaffe insgnia or even some parts of a BF-110. It would make a beautiful display.

At last, you can try to find more information about both planes at this forum:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8

There are some very serious researchers there and I'm pretty sure that can add more information about this incident.

Congratulations and once more thanks,

Douglas

sheepherder · 12-11-2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

When the magazine safeties were abandoned, some were removed, with the holes left intact, others were simply clipped and others were neatly reworked (holes welded in). Depends on the police arsenal, the time and the budget, I guess.

And I suppose the equipment...Which leads me to my question: How exactly were they welded in??? Gas welding, arc [stick], maybe TIG (if it had been invented yet)??? have you inspected any that were welded in??? How were they refinished (the machining)??? Machined/milled, ground, filed, what???

ieyres · 12-11-2009, 02:41 PM

Hi Douglas - Thanks for the reply, i'll give that Forum a good look over. The search for a suitable box frame starts tomorrow...

I've carefully removed the side plate & taken a couple of quick photos, Its possible that there may have been a sear safety hole but the metal is just too corroded & the edge has been lost on shelf, i presume there wasnt much metal between the hole and the edge in the beginning.

From a closer look the number on the trigger matches the frame

Anyway, hope the pictures are of some help...

ieyres · 12-11-2009, 02:59 PM

I was just looking at some pictures of a similar dated Erfurt on

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/542ErfurtPol.htm

They mention.... "A clue to the history of the gun is the milling on the front top of the receiver. The small indent at the barrel location above the date tells us the receiver was originally intended to be or was an artillery model. At some point the barrel was changed at the factory"

My Luger also has this milling. Any thoughts on the validity of that comment ?

MFC · 12-12-2009, 01:07 AM

All Erfurts from 1916 to 1918 have the Artillery rear sight notch on the receiver.

Don M · 12-12-2009, 02:41 PM

While I can't be sure, it does look as if the narrow strip of shelf outside rivet hole has corroded away. I think the odds are better than 99% that it once had a sear safety that was removed and that the side plate was replaced with one that did not have a slot milled in the top for the sear safety.

There is also clearly a hole drilled in the frame above the trigger that was required for the mag safety mechanism.

It is probable that this pistol was transferred from the police to the military where the sear and mag safeties were removed.

Vlim · 12-12-2009, 02:44 PM

Nice,

the Magazine safety hole is clearly there where it belongs.

Re. to the welding techinques used. Since there was no MIG or TIG welding equipment, I guess that when welding was done, it was old fashioned arc welding or hard soldering. Although I have some welding experience (including my certificate :P ), I don't know a lot about vintage welding techniques.

The 'extruded' tube of the Haenel magazines was actually welded, and we know of modern welding techniques used in the creation and modification of the 1970s - 90s Mauser Parabellum.

Dwight Gruber · 12-14-2009, 04:50 PM

Thanks for the additional pictures and info. OK, I buy that it had a sear safety. This gun is unusual in another respect, in that it lacks the 1920 property mark; almost all the other reports include the mark.

--Dwight

ieyres · 12-15-2009, 08:20 AM

Hi Dwight,

thanks for the reply. Would i be right in assuming a 1920 mark would be where the gun has been rubbed back to bare metal (to put the 2005 deact proof mark on) just forward of the 1918 date?
I didn't think too much metal had been taken off, but i'll take another look tonght. From what little i know, It would be unusual for anyone to be that desctructive in a UK deactivation.

12-09-2009, 12:24 PM	#21
RichSr User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: West Texas Posts: 128 Thanks: 154 Thanked 54 Times in 36 Posts	I'm must be missing something, or just not up on police models enough. I see the slot on the side for the magazine safety but there doesn't appear to be the round hole in the frame above the mag release that would be needed to activate the safety. How about some info on this from the experts. __________________ Rich

12-09-2009, 12:43 PM	#23
RichSr User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: West Texas Posts: 128 Thanks: 154 Thanked 54 Times in 36 Posts	Thanks Gerben I hadn't heard of the holes being welded up. As they say, you learn something new every day. __________________ Rich

12-09-2009, 05:36 PM	#25
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	RichSr, you would not be able to see the hole in the frame for the mag safety as long as the side plate is on. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

12-09-2009, 09:14 PM	#27
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Dwight, it may have had a sear safety at one time. The side plate apparently has a different serial number and may have been replaced after a sear safety was removed. It would be interesting to know what's under the side plate. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

12-10-2009, 12:55 PM	#29
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Dwight, I looked carefully at the photos but can't really tell. It appears that part of the shelf has been corroded away. Perhaps the owner will look to see if the shelf is still intact and if there is a hole where the rivet would have been. The photo below shows a Luger from which the sear safety has been removed. The hole on the right is where the rivet was. It is located where the shelf begins its taper back into the frame. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

12-09-2009, 12:36 PM	#22
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Rich, When the magazine safeties were abandoned, some were removed, with the holes left intact, others were simply clipped and others were neatly reworked (holes welded in). Depends on the police arsenal, the time and the budget, I guess.

12-09-2009, 08:25 PM	#26
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	You're right, the right receiver marks and barrel marks are pretty trashed. Is there a 1920 property mark on the top of the receiver as well as a date? Interesting that there was a mag safety but no sear safety. --Dwight

12-09-2009, 09:27 PM	#28
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Doesn't look like there is a rivet hole in the sear bar shelf --Dwight

12-10-2009, 01:29 PM	#30
ieyres User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi, Just checked and i can't see any evidence of holes on the shelf, but its possible they could have been filled and the pitting masks this. There is no 1920 property mark on the receiver just 1918. hope that helps Iain

12-10-2009, 06:25 PM	#31
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	If this pistol had a mag safety and no sear safety, it will be the first instance of that I have seen or heard of. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

12-11-2009, 08:21 AM	#32
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Ian, Very interesting story that came along with this pistol. Thanks for sharing! I remember to have read something about Luger in use by Luftwaffe bombers aircrews during the first stages of the war. I think this is mention on John Walter's "The Luger Story". Most of the small pistols went to the fighters pilots, as the Bf-110 heavy fighters and bombers like the Ju-88 and He-111 had more room for bigger pistols. As said above, I would put it in a bax, together with some Luftwaffe insgnia or even some parts of a BF-110. It would make a beautiful display. At last, you can try to find more information about both planes at this forum: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8 There are some very serious researchers there and I'm pretty sure that can add more information about this incident. Congratulations and once more thanks, Douglas

12-11-2009, 02:41 PM	#34
ieyres User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi Douglas - Thanks for the reply, i'll give that Forum a good look over. The search for a suitable box frame starts tomorrow... I've carefully removed the side plate & taken a couple of quick photos, Its possible that there may have been a sear safety hole but the metal is just too corroded & the edge has been lost on shelf, i presume there wasnt much metal between the hole and the edge in the beginning. From a closer look the number on the trigger matches the frame Anyway, hope the pictures are of some help... Attached Thumbnails

12-11-2009, 02:59 PM	#35
ieyres User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I was just looking at some pictures of a similar dated Erfurt on http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/542ErfurtPol.htm They mention.... "A clue to the history of the gun is the milling on the front top of the receiver. The small indent at the barrel location above the date tells us the receiver was originally intended to be or was an artillery model. At some point the barrel was changed at the factory" My Luger also has this milling. Any thoughts on the validity of that comment ? Attached Thumbnails

12-12-2009, 01:07 AM	#36
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	All Erfurts from 1916 to 1918 have the Artillery rear sight notch on the receiver. __________________ Mike C.

12-12-2009, 02:41 PM	#37
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	While I can't be sure, it does look as if the narrow strip of shelf outside rivet hole has corroded away. I think the odds are better than 99% that it once had a sear safety that was removed and that the side plate was replaced with one that did not have a slot milled in the top for the sear safety. There is also clearly a hole drilled in the frame above the trigger that was required for the mag safety mechanism. It is probable that this pistol was transferred from the police to the military where the sear and mag safeties were removed. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

12-12-2009, 02:44 PM	#38
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Nice, the Magazine safety hole is clearly there where it belongs. Re. to the welding techinques used. Since there was no MIG or TIG welding equipment, I guess that when welding was done, it was old fashioned arc welding or hard soldering. Although I have some welding experience (including my certificate :P ), I don't know a lot about vintage welding techniques. The 'extruded' tube of the Haenel magazines was actually welded, and we know of modern welding techniques used in the creation and modification of the 1970s - 90s Mauser Parabellum.

12-14-2009, 04:50 PM	#39
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Thanks for the additional pictures and info. OK, I buy that it had a sear safety. This gun is unusual in another respect, in that it lacks the 1920 property mark; almost all the other reports include the mark. --Dwight

12-15-2009, 08:20 AM	#40
ieyres User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi Dwight, thanks for the reply. Would i be right in assuming a 1920 mark would be where the gun has been rubbed back to bare metal (to put the 2005 deact proof mark on) just forward of the 1918 date? I didn't think too much metal had been taken off, but i'll take another look tonght. From what little i know, It would be unusual for anyone to be that desctructive in a UK deactivation.