Artillery rig- need pics

HuntMaster · 11-17-2009, 11:18 PM

O.K.- I know this is a dumb question, but it must be asked by me.
I have an Artillery rig with mag pouch and a thin, leather strap I can't figure out how it is suppose to be worn. Anyone out there have pics available to post
- even old military photos- of how an Artillery rig is worn?

Thanks,
Derek

George Anderson · 11-18-2009, 07:20 AM

Here are several both with and without shoulder straps

alanint · 11-18-2009, 07:26 AM

When worn on the belt without the shoulder strap, was there an additional belt or something to interface the holster with the standard waist belt, since the holster straps are also horizontal?

George Anderson · 11-18-2009, 07:52 AM

I am not sure that I understand your question. I believe that those men wearing LP08 outfits without using the shoulder strap have run their equipment belt between the upper keeper strap of the rig and the stock.

This photo shows an infantryman wearing the stock/holster on his belt and he has wrapped the shoulder strap around the rig.

klaus 3338 · 11-18-2009, 08:38 AM

According German military orders it wasn´t allowed to wear or use the LP08 without the straps!

The 3. picture seems to show an unusual 3 magazine pouch!

And the 4. is showing a LP08 holster which I can´t identify.

Is it possible to see some closeup photos?

Best regards and thanks for sharing.

George Anderson · 11-18-2009, 09:00 AM

Klaus, here are some close up photos.

George Anderson · 11-18-2009, 09:24 AM

Klaus, I think you have seen this before. It holds three matching magazines.

klaus 3338 · 11-18-2009, 02:06 PM

George, wonderful photos and a rare mag pouch- this one, yours is the only one I know to exist.
Thanks a lot for the photos and sharing with us!!!
Best to you Klaus

mauro · 11-18-2009, 02:47 PM

Klaus,
The George collection of Luger Artillery pictures is really nice.

I have some nice items as well.

Please visit my web site and click on "historical pictures".

Let me know...

Cheers,
Mauro

alanint · 11-18-2009, 03:01 PM

Hi George,

What I meant was that not all the photos show a complete rig being worn. The second studio photo, for example, shows holster only being worn on the belt. No stock or keepers present.
My question is how did they wear the holster only on a belt if the loops on the back were parrallel to the waist belt.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-18-2009, 03:13 PM

Doug, My question is how did they wear the holster only on a belt if the loops on the back were parrallel to the waist belt.

The "loops on the back" I believe you are referring to is the stock strap attaching block. On an Artillery holster it does indeed run parrellel to a waist belt.
The German solution to retaining this block for future attachment to a stock and wearing the holster on a belt was to slip a couple of 3 inch straps into either side of the block, attaching them at their ends to themselves with a stock strap stud. This simple apparatus enables a belt to be threaded thru them and carried in the regular fashion. This does not allow for the stock to be used though.
George explained above that the stock and holster could be carried by threading the belt thru the stock & holster, using the top stock strap as a keeper.

Jery Burney

alanint · 11-18-2009, 03:41 PM

Thanks, Jerry!

That makes it clear.

Have any originals of these additional studded loops survived?

lugerholsterrepair · 11-18-2009, 03:58 PM

Doug, I have seen originals but it's my belief that since they were removeable they were often removed and discarded. I patterned my loops from a client who had them on a holster he sent to me. They are quite simple actually. An ingenious solution for belt carry of the Artillery holster.

Jerry Burney

klaus 3338 · 11-19-2009, 09:06 AM

Hi Mauro,
I visited your side several times. You offer great informations and photos of the nicest collections, yours included.
I have only a photo which may be of interest for you.
Have you ever seen another pouch for 3 mags?
I´m not able to identify the LP08 holster on George´s 4. photo.
I picked up several hundreds of holsters during the years and there were some LP08 holsters but I never saw one like this on the photo.
Best regards and thanks for sharing your side!
Klaus
If you need a better copy of the photo let me know (grafschaft@gmx.de)

klaus 3338 · 11-19-2009, 11:33 AM

Mauro,
I looked at my archive and found some documents which may be of interest for you and other collectors, too.
On some old photos we see a soldier armed with a LP08 and 3 (!) mag pouches.
Handwritten sentences on the two attached documents point to using 3 mag pouches with each LP08. So there must be 7 magazines with each LP08 for a short (early) time. Later two or in some cases only one double mag pouch were used with the LP08. So the LP08 came with 5 or only 3 magazines “in later days”.

During the years I picked up many mag pouches. In some cases were clips with underlined T acceptance marks inside. Some years ago, when the new gun law was introduced into U.K., I met an English collector who wanted to sell a 1917 dated Luger rig. In the mag- pouch were clips with the acceptance mark as on the photo. I observed this several times. It seems that from 1917 on the spare clips for the long Luger came with the C/T underline instead of the serial numbers.

I know that my English is not the best but hope you will understand what I mean.

Regards Klaus

worldoftone · 11-19-2009, 12:18 PM

Great info and pics! I'll get me an artillery one day . . .

- WOT

mauro · 11-19-2009, 02:40 PM

Hello Klaus,
Thank you so much for sharing the picture. I have already some copies of the picture you presented. I know as well a collector that has the (or one of the) original(s). I like this picture mainly because of the TM08 and related pouch.

Concerning the Holsters, if I am not wrong they seem to me 1915 Eugen Huber holsters, usually additionally marked AWM/1/15.

If you look at my web site, the current last picture in the "historical picture area" is showing the same holster; there is also a photo of a rig based on this holster.

I have in my collection a couple of pictures of Artillery soldiers with three magazine pouches. Your find in the archive is really interesting.

The George magazine pouch is really rare! It is the only specimen I have seen up to now.

Thank you for sharing.

Ciao,
Mauro

laoshi75 · 11-19-2009, 03:37 PM

Mauro,

I am not sure they are AWM 15 holsters. ok, they seem to have the inside cleaning rod pouch, but the sides of the flap are not fixed in the same way as AWM/ Eugen Huber holsters: look at the pix (from Bender's book) and one of my holsters. The flaps and the shape of the flap sides of these holsters, on the 4th photo of George, are very strange.
Also, these 3 holsters are curiously all made for belt use...

mauro · 11-19-2009, 05:51 PM

Mmm! Hard to say, they are similar but, as I have written, I am not completely sure too.

In my picture the characteristic shape of this holster is more visible to me...

Click image for larger version

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klaus 3338 · 11-20-2009, 01:40 AM

I also had AWM LP08 holsters but the holsters on the photo are not these. I think they are made of smooth leather and!

11-17-2009, 11:18 PM	#1
HuntMaster User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Artillery rig- need pics O.K.- I know this is a dumb question, but it must be asked by me. I have an Artillery rig with mag pouch and a thin, leather strap I can't figure out how it is suppose to be worn. Anyone out there have pics available to post - even old military photos- of how an Artillery rig is worn? Thanks, Derek

11-18-2009, 07:20 AM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Here are several both with and without shoulder straps Attached Thumbnails

11-18-2009, 07:52 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I am not sure that I understand your question. I believe that those men wearing LP08 outfits without using the shoulder strap have run their equipment belt between the upper keeper strap of the rig and the stock. This photo shows an infantryman wearing the stock/holster on his belt and he has wrapped the shoulder strap around the rig. Attached Thumbnails

11-18-2009, 09:00 AM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Klaus, here are some close up photos. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

11-18-2009, 09:24 AM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Klaus, I think you have seen this before. It holds three matching magazines. Attached Thumbnails

11-18-2009, 07:26 AM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	When worn on the belt without the shoulder strap, was there an additional belt or something to interface the holster with the standard waist belt, since the holster straps are also horizontal?

11-18-2009, 08:38 AM	#5
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	According German military orders it wasn´t allowed to wear or use the LP08 without the straps! The 3. picture seems to show an unusual 3 magazine pouch! And the 4. is showing a LP08 holster which I can´t identify. Is it possible to see some closeup photos? Best regards and thanks for sharing.

11-18-2009, 02:06 PM	#8
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	George, wonderful photos and a rare mag pouch- this one, yours is the only one I know to exist. Thanks a lot for the photos and sharing with us!!! Best to you Klaus

11-18-2009, 02:47 PM	#9
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Klaus, The George collection of Luger Artillery pictures is really nice. I have some nice items as well. Please visit my web site and click on "historical pictures". Let me know... Cheers, Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

11-18-2009, 03:01 PM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Hi George, What I meant was that not all the photos show a complete rig being worn. The second studio photo, for example, shows holster only being worn on the belt. No stock or keepers present. My question is how did they wear the holster only on a belt if the loops on the back were parrallel to the waist belt.

11-18-2009, 03:13 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Doug, My question is how did they wear the holster only on a belt if the loops on the back were parrallel to the waist belt. The "loops on the back" I believe you are referring to is the stock strap attaching block. On an Artillery holster it does indeed run parrellel to a waist belt. The German solution to retaining this block for future attachment to a stock and wearing the holster on a belt was to slip a couple of 3 inch straps into either side of the block, attaching them at their ends to themselves with a stock strap stud. This simple apparatus enables a belt to be threaded thru them and carried in the regular fashion. This does not allow for the stock to be used though. George explained above that the stock and holster could be carried by threading the belt thru the stock & holster, using the top stock strap as a keeper. Jery Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-18-2009, 03:41 PM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Thanks, Jerry! That makes it clear. Have any originals of these additional studded loops survived?

11-18-2009, 03:58 PM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Doug, I have seen originals but it's my belief that since they were removeable they were often removed and discarded. I patterned my loops from a client who had them on a holster he sent to me. They are quite simple actually. An ingenious solution for belt carry of the Artillery holster. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-19-2009, 09:06 AM	#14
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Mauro, I visited your side several times. You offer great informations and photos of the nicest collections, yours included. I have only a photo which may be of interest for you. Have you ever seen another pouch for 3 mags? I´m not able to identify the LP08 holster on George´s 4. photo. I picked up several hundreds of holsters during the years and there were some LP08 holsters but I never saw one like this on the photo. Best regards and thanks for sharing your side! Klaus If you need a better copy of the photo let me know (grafschaft@gmx.de) Attached Thumbnails

11-19-2009, 11:33 AM	#15
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	Mauro, I looked at my archive and found some documents which may be of interest for you and other collectors, too. On some old photos we see a soldier armed with a LP08 and 3 (!) mag pouches. Handwritten sentences on the two attached documents point to using 3 mag pouches with each LP08. So there must be 7 magazines with each LP08 for a short (early) time. Later two or in some cases only one double mag pouch were used with the LP08. So the LP08 came with 5 or only 3 magazines “in later days”. During the years I picked up many mag pouches. In some cases were clips with underlined T acceptance marks inside. Some years ago, when the new gun law was introduced into U.K., I met an English collector who wanted to sell a 1917 dated Luger rig. In the mag- pouch were clips with the acceptance mark as on the photo. I observed this several times. It seems that from 1917 on the spare clips for the long Luger came with the C/T underline instead of the serial numbers. I know that my English is not the best but hope you will understand what I mean. Regards Klaus Attached Thumbnails

11-19-2009, 12:18 PM	#16
worldoftone User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 81 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Great info and pics! I'll get me an artillery one day . . . - WOT

11-19-2009, 02:40 PM	#17
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Hello Klaus, Thank you so much for sharing the picture. I have already some copies of the picture you presented. I know as well a collector that has the (or one of the) original(s). I like this picture mainly because of the TM08 and related pouch. Concerning the Holsters, if I am not wrong they seem to me 1915 Eugen Huber holsters, usually additionally marked AWM/1/15. If you look at my web site, the current last picture in the "historical picture area" is showing the same holster; there is also a photo of a rig based on this holster. I have in my collection a couple of pictures of Artillery soldiers with three magazine pouches. Your find in the archive is really interesting. The George magazine pouch is really rare! It is the only specimen I have seen up to now. Thank you for sharing. Ciao, Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

11-19-2009, 03:37 PM	#18
laoshi75 User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Thailand/France Posts: 491 Thanks: 288 Thanked 98 Times in 42 Posts	Mauro, I am not sure they are AWM 15 holsters. ok, they seem to have the inside cleaning rod pouch, but the sides of the flap are not fixed in the same way as AWM/ Eugen Huber holsters: look at the pix (from Bender's book) and one of my holsters. The flaps and the shape of the flap sides of these holsters, on the 4th photo of George, are very strange. Also, these 3 holsters are curiously all made for belt use... Attached Thumbnails

11-19-2009, 05:51 PM	#19
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Mmm! Hard to say, they are similar but, as I have written, I am not completely sure too. In my picture the characteristic shape of this holster is more visible to me... __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

11-20-2009, 01:40 AM	#20
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	I also had AWM LP08 holsters but the holsters on the photo are not these. I think they are made of smooth leather and!