WTK can I put a butt stock on this pistol

junkmanted · 11-18-2009, 06:24 PM

The pistol has the mount and
I read the listed forms and think my pistol falls in this catagory,,,

Luger, German model 1914, Artillery model pistol, mfd. by DWM or Erfurt,
having chambers dated 1914 - -1918, bearing Imperial German military proofmarks
& accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable
wooden shoulder stocks.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=22303

Ice · 11-18-2009, 06:28 PM

The BATF allows you to add the shoulder stock to an original artillery Luger. They are a ball to shoot with the stock. Just don't add one to a short barrel Luger.

Charlie

Ron Smith · 11-18-2009, 06:39 PM

"WTK can I put a butt stock on this pistol"

If you are talking about the pistol in the link? The answer is a firm NO. It would be a violation of Federal Law to put a butt stock on a 1916 with a 4" barrel. Artillery Lugers have 8" barrels, Navy Lugers have 6" barrels, Carbines vary from 11" to 16" barrels. These are the only Lugers that are stock legal, with the exception of one or two very rare variations.

Ron

junkmanted · 11-18-2009, 06:48 PM

thanks

suum cuique · 11-18-2009, 07:47 PM

A stock makes the gun even "longer".

alvin · 11-18-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suum cuique

A stock makes the gun even "longer".

In Yugo WWII movie, a typical talk was a Crotian police (bad guy) holding the arms of a man (good figure) saying "Go. You can explain it to Gestapo"

MFC · 11-18-2009, 11:47 PM

Andy,
The BATF considers it a short barreled rifle. All rifles with a barrel shorter than 16" long are illegal (unless exempt). The reason the Artillery, navy , and carbines are exempt from the law, is because they are so collectable/valuable, that they would not likely be used in a crime.

jamese · 11-19-2009, 05:18 AM

for $200 you can get a SBR permit for the gun and put the stock on

Jim

suum cuique · 11-19-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFC

Andy,
The BATF considers it a short barreled rifle. All rifles with a barrel shorter than 16" long are illegal (unless exempt). The reason the Artillery, navy , and carbines are exempt from the law, is because they are so collectable/valuable, that they would not likely be used in a crime.

Thanks.
BTW, is the military use of butt stocks documented with navy or regular 4 inch barreled Lugers? Does some photos exist?

Edward Tinker · 11-19-2009, 09:33 AM

Andy, you can always correct a posting by clicking the pencil and paper

6 inch and yes, there are pictures; see them on ebay off and on. I assume 4 inch were used too, but the navy and the stocks were for ship and marine type of use...

Ed

suum cuique · 11-19-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Andy, you can always correct a posting by clicking the pencil and paper

6 inch and yes, there are pictures; see them on ebay off and on. I assume 4 inch were used too, but the navy and the stocks were for ship and marine type of use...

Ed

Thanks Ed

Edward Tinker · 11-19-2009, 10:47 AM

I correct my rapid writings many times a week (or more often)

DavidJayUden · 11-19-2009, 10:50 AM

I read somewhere that the stock lug was left on the 4" models in particular as an aid for the gunsmiths as they worked. And I have yet to see an original finish Luger with no bluing wear marks on the stock lug.
DJU

John Sabato · 11-20-2009, 09:37 AM

I edit & correct Ed's posts several times a week too!

(Just kidding Ed!)

sheepherder · 11-20-2009, 05:52 PM

How about if he puts an artillery barrel + sight on that frame??? Will that make it "legal"???

(Never mind if it ain't politically correct...)

DavidJayUden · 11-20-2009, 06:44 PM

If he put on an artillery barrel, rear sight and toggle link onto an early DWM, or Erfurt, how could they tell?
DJU

champ7fc · 11-20-2009, 08:31 PM

The original artillery has a relieved receiver and a specific sight mounted on the barrel, there is no rear sight per se. The penalties for getting caught doing this without a legit arty are not worth the bother, at least to me. The rules are very specific regarding the use of the stock and one of them is, the attachment to an ORIGINAL Artillery or Navy Luger. The key word here is ORIGINAL. Do not mess with the BATF they do not fool around.

DavidJayUden · 11-20-2009, 08:53 PM

CFM:
OK. Now is a rebarreled arty. "original"? Re-finished?
I'm just screwing with you. We could play "what if" all day.
And I agree about the BATF. When confronting temptation in these matters I always visualize all my guns going down the road in some agent's trunk never to be seen again. Keeps me honest.
DJU

Ron Wood · 11-20-2009, 08:58 PM

Odd as it may seem, if an original full arty upper, i.e. barrel (with LP08 sights), relieved receiver and toggle train are mounted on the frame, WWI DWM or Erfurt, it becomes a mis-matched LP08 and would be legal with a stock. I seriously doubt that an incorrect toggle train would make much difference. The key item is that original barrel/receiver group that makes it legal. Even adding an aftermarket repro LP08 barrel with correct sights to a relieved receiver would make it OK. What the BATFE is looking for is original configuration. Just adding a 8" barrel without the tangent sight won't hack it.

sheepherder · 11-20-2009, 09:39 PM

Note to Junkmanted -

Sarco sells the repro arty barrel and sight...And I believe Lugerdoc here on this forum may as well...and I think Lugerdoc has the arty rear toggle too...

They ain't cheap...but if you just have to have a stocked Luger...

11-18-2009, 06:24 PM	#1
junkmanted User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	WTK can I put a butt stock on this pistol The pistol has the mount and I read the listed forms and think my pistol falls in this catagory,,, Luger, German model 1914, Artillery model pistol, mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having chambers dated 1914 - -1918, bearing Imperial German military proofmarks & accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=22303

11-18-2009, 06:39 PM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	"WTK can I put a butt stock on this pistol" If you are talking about the pistol in the link? The answer is a firm NO. It would be a violation of Federal Law to put a butt stock on a 1916 with a 4" barrel. Artillery Lugers have 8" barrels, Navy Lugers have 6" barrels, Carbines vary from 11" to 16" barrels. These are the only Lugers that are stock legal, with the exception of one or two very rare variations. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-18-2009, 07:47 PM	#5
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 108 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Whats the reason? A stock makes the gun even "longer". __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

11-18-2009, 11:47 PM	#7
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Andy, The BATF considers it a short barreled rifle. All rifles with a barrel shorter than 16" long are illegal (unless exempt). The reason the Artillery, navy , and carbines are exempt from the law, is because they are so collectable/valuable, that they would not likely be used in a crime. __________________ Mike C.

11-19-2009, 05:18 AM	#8
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	for $200 you can get a SBR permit for the gun and put the stock on Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

11-18-2009, 06:28 PM	#2
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	The BATF allows you to add the shoulder stock to an original artillery Luger. They are a ball to shoot with the stock. Just don't add one to a short barrel Luger. Charlie

11-18-2009, 06:48 PM	#4
junkmanted User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks

11-19-2009, 09:33 AM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Andy, you can always correct a posting by clicking the pencil and paper 6 inch and yes, there are pictures; see them on ebay off and on. I assume 4 inch were used too, but the navy and the stocks were for ship and marine type of use... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-19-2009, 10:47 AM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	I correct my rapid writings many times a week (or more often)

11-19-2009, 10:50 AM	#13
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I read somewhere that the stock lug was left on the 4" models in particular as an aid for the gunsmiths as they worked. And I have yet to see an original finish Luger with no bluing wear marks on the stock lug. DJU

11-20-2009, 09:37 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I edit & correct Ed's posts several times a week too! (Just kidding Ed!) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-20-2009, 05:52 PM	#15
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,195 Thanks: 1,414 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	How about if he puts an artillery barrel + sight on that frame??? Will that make it "legal"??? (Never mind if it ain't politically correct...)

11-20-2009, 06:44 PM	#16
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	If he put on an artillery barrel, rear sight and toggle link onto an early DWM, or Erfurt, how could they tell? DJU

11-20-2009, 08:31 PM	#17
champ7fc User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Connecticut Posts: 103 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	The original artillery has a relieved receiver and a specific sight mounted on the barrel, there is no rear sight per se. The penalties for getting caught doing this without a legit arty are not worth the bother, at least to me. The rules are very specific regarding the use of the stock and one of them is, the attachment to an ORIGINAL Artillery or Navy Luger. The key word here is ORIGINAL. Do not mess with the BATF they do not fool around. __________________ cfm

11-20-2009, 08:53 PM	#18
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	CFM: OK. Now is a rebarreled arty. "original"? Re-finished? I'm just screwing with you. We could play "what if" all day. And I agree about the BATF. When confronting temptation in these matters I always visualize all my guns going down the road in some agent's trunk never to be seen again. Keeps me honest. DJU

11-20-2009, 08:58 PM	#19
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	Odd as it may seem, if an original full arty upper, i.e. barrel (with LP08 sights), relieved receiver and toggle train are mounted on the frame, WWI DWM or Erfurt, it becomes a mis-matched LP08 and would be legal with a stock. I seriously doubt that an incorrect toggle train would make much difference. The key item is that original barrel/receiver group that makes it legal. Even adding an aftermarket repro LP08 barrel with correct sights to a relieved receiver would make it OK. What the BATFE is looking for is original configuration. Just adding a 8" barrel without the tangent sight won't hack it. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-20-2009, 09:39 PM	#20
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,195 Thanks: 1,414 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	Note to Junkmanted - Sarco sells the repro arty barrel and sight...And I believe Lugerdoc here on this forum may as well...and I think Lugerdoc has the arty rear toggle too... They ain't cheap...but if you just have to have a stocked Luger...