Shooting C-96 + Thompson Semi-Auto

worldoftone · 09-28-2009, 01:20 AM

Went to the range today. Hoped to have my long-barreled Luger ready, but it was not to be. Hopefully by next weekend. My C-96 with and without stock is very accurate at around 25-yards.

Shot the Thompson from 15-25 yards with drum and stick mags. From a sheer fun factor standpoint, the new Auto-Ordinance Thompson's can't be beat.

- WOT

alvin · 09-28-2009, 06:35 AM

Cool. C96 shooting with stock on has a "hammer biting" problem. Because the holding hand position is high, it's also easy to accidentally push the safety level up during recoil on 1930. At least, that's my case... and my hand is small.

Solution is putting the thumb on the right side of the gun (or left side if left-handed, my case). So the hand does not actually wrap the grip, but control the stability. Works well for me.

Lots of fun.

====

Wait a minute... you shoot in backyard and neighbor has no problem with that? In Mid-West?

sheepherder · 09-28-2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Wait a minute... you shoot in backyard and neighbor has no problem with that?

Cats are a big problem in Texas...

And in NYC also...Before the two stadiums in NYC were closed, the rat problem had grown to be a cat problem...wild feral cats were taking the stadiums over...and feeding on the rats...ugh...one of the ugly truths of sports stadiums...

PhilOhio · 09-28-2009, 12:07 PM

WOT, and Guys, make a little mental note here...

Glad to hear that your new Kahr Arms semiauto Thompson "can't be beat", as many of them can be beat. Until recently, at least, they had a well deserved reputation of having one of the higher rates of new gun nonfunctionality of any firearm on the U.S. market. And if you want warranty service, there is a pretty solid database on how that works out, or doesn't. Multiple customer reports are available, spanning at least 8 years during which I closely followed the subject, as summarized below.

There is no one particular problem with the guns. Problems reported by owners include, poor metallurgy, heat treatment, completely out-of-specs machining dimensions, barrels which unscrew with mere finger pressure, loose compensators which literally fall off or shoot off, rear sights which fall off because of bad riveting or almost no riveting, guns which simply will not feed any configuration of ammo, widespread evidence that no pre-delivery quality control inspection has ever taken place at all, extractors which repeatedly break, machine cuts and magazine releases so poorly and wrongly made that neither a drum magazine nor a stick magazine can be inserted or locked in place so that the bolt can pick up a round, bolt faces which just break, sear and firing pin mechanisms so poorly made that they jam up and the gun cannot be disassembled to repair or replace them without destroying more parts, and probably a few other minor problems I am forgetting.

Oh yes, the aluminum frames are a major problem, or series of problems. Erosion and galling of the feed ramp is a big one. There is no fix, except a new frame or gun. It is the source of many Kahr non-feeding difficulties.

Kahr Arms recently notified customers that warranties would be voided if they used steel cased ammo, such as that from Wolf. That was because they were well aware that their extractors and bolts were breaking because of poor quality and use of steel cased ammo. I avoid such ammo anyway, but WW-II Thompsons were made to milspecs assuming that steel cased ammo would be used without breakage problems. Kahr semis won't hack it.

The Kahr drums are an entirely 'nother can of worms, both 50 and 100 rounders. A friend of mine, and an outstanding firearms craftsman in Oregon, Merle Bitikofer (aka "Merle the Drum Doctor"), makes a nice income remanufacturing and TESTING brand new inoperable Kahr Arms drums so that they work...as they should have done before leaving the Kahr Arms factory. By contrast, Chinese repro drums recently placed on the market are inexpensive and work flawlessly, with extensive user reports verifying this. Kahr management has been quite angry about that, and their lawyers have fought to harass the importers and threaten varous forms of retaliation against them and even against buyers of the drums! They have DEMANDED that some of these drums be surrendered to them...which gave me a good laugh. I own two.

A Thompson owners' website offers the rare opportunity for owners to get together and compare notes. The result has been pretty conclusive. Caveat Emptor.

A highly skilled gunsmith in Delta, Colorado derives a considerable portion of his total business just from taking new, or almost new, Kahr Arms 1927A1 semiauto Thompsons and virtually remanufacturing them so that they will at least work.

Yesterday we had a political fund raiser for a nearby Republican candidate; people, mostly non-gun folks, got to shoot exotic guns for a fee, and some were newly drawn into the shooting sport. One of the guns was a 1927A1 semi-auto Thompson, and I'll be darned if it didn't work.

Happily.

The American Thompson Association (TATA) and its members have, for years, tried to help, persuade, cajole, motivate, and intimidate the craftsmen at Kahr Arms to improve this situation and see that the guns work before leaving the factory. The only change they have made so far was to replace the old "cheese grater" cocking knob with a more attractive 1928 style knob which looks better but is also poorly made and knurled. Sometimes we think things are improving, but usually we turn out to have been premature in our optimism. But every now and then one hears an owner report that one of these guns is actually working, like yours. That's a good sign.

I avoid all that pain and frustration by owning an original registered full auto 1928AC gun which actually passed a rigid Auto Ordnance (the real one) quality control inspection in 1943.

If you have a Kahr Thompson which works, congratulations. They can indeed be fun, and the magazine content lasts a little bit longer than mine, when I get overly enthusiastic on the trigger.

Oh yes, it might be pertinent for a prospective purchaser to know that Kahr Arms is a subsidiary of a certain Saeilo corporation, which is a wholly owned (or perhaps "holy" owned) commercial front for the South Korean "Unification Church", more popularly known as the "Moonies", and the U.S. factory is directly run by one of the sons of founder Reverend SUN Myong-mun.

Just remember, if you are walking a gun show and see a used Kahr semi Thompson on the table...better keep walking. It is probably there for a reason. If it was built in West Hurley by the late George Numrich's earlier version of Auto Ordnance, it is probably O.K. If not...keep hiking.

worldoftone · 09-28-2009, 12:21 PM

They allegedly revised a few things in 2007 to make them better. Mine works fine so far, and that's all I care about. If it breaks, oh well. I'm used to having to work on WWII guns to get them right anyway. Didn't really want to get into a political discussion here about who owns what, just having fun.

- WOT

John Sabato · 09-28-2009, 01:47 PM

Thanks to everyone for your reports on these two guns. I am a fan of both, but own neither... just too rich for my blood these days.

worldoftone · 09-28-2009, 03:16 PM

A numbers-matched good-condition C-96 is a real joy to shoot. A class act all the way

Girlfriend liked it so much she now wants one. She has yet to shoot the Lugers . . .

- WOT

worldoftone · 09-28-2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

But every now and then one hears an owner report that one of these guns is actually working, like yours. That's a good sign.

Let's hope! I'll post more on the life of this thing as time goes on. I knew of some of the shortcomings, but my drum mag is working good so far as is the rifle. No jams, misfeeds and no broken parts. I did have the stock mounting screws work loose initially, but retightened them and haven't had any issues since. I do prefer the stick mags due to the easier loading. Mine is not the aluminum receiver, but the steel one.

- WOT

saab-bob · 09-28-2009, 08:22 PM

Just the other day I got to shoot a real 1927 Thompson 1927A1 at full auto,the way Colonel Thompson had intended. It was great.Loved the Cutts compensator,lots of muzzle flash. Previously I sampled the military M1A1 version,still fun but not near as much nostalgia!
Had to drive to another state to do this!

worldoftone · 09-28-2009, 11:05 PM

Heh heh sweet!

- WOT

alanint · 09-29-2009, 06:11 AM

Just as a clarification. The 1927 Thompson was a semi auto weapon. What you fired was either a 1921, 1921 AC, a 1928 or a 1928A1 Thompson.

alvin · 09-29-2009, 06:42 AM

So, historically, there was semi-auto version Thompson. Is that correct? I saw some newly made Auto Ordanance semi-auto Thompson on the market. Are them exactly 1927 style?

saab-bob · 09-29-2009, 01:08 PM

I have never heard of a real semi-auto Thompson from the 1920's. Of course,where I live these guns are forbidden fruit! Where they common?

automan1 · 09-29-2009, 01:47 PM

A 1927A or 1927AC was a semi-auto Thompson manufactured by Auto-Ordnance N.Y. in the late 1920's.
Some were converted back to select fire.

Bill

alanint · 09-29-2009, 02:45 PM

My sources state that the model of 1927 were actually Model 1921s, where the receivers were ground down to replace "Model of 1921 Submachinegun" with "Model of 1927 Semi Auto Carbine" and the "Auto" was removed from the frame. Both the upper and lower receivers remain the same as the Model of 1921 and can be easely converted back to FA. They are therefore considered to be SMGs by the ATF

This would indicate that these were Colt made guns originally, not Auto Ordnance.

Auto-Ordnance in West Hurley, NY made a semi starting in the 1980s, which are designated 1927A1s. These are purpose built as semis and cannot easely be converted to FA.

automan1 · 09-29-2009, 04:06 PM

Colt manufactured 1921 Thompson's for Auto-Ordnance N.Y. and not West Hurley N.Y.

Bill

alanint · 09-29-2009, 09:36 PM

You are correct that Colt made the guns for the original Auto Ordnance Corporation, but the model designation was only
"1927"
There were NO 1927A or 1927AC models, as the "A" stands for "Automatic" and the "AC" stands for "Automatic, Compensated"- Neither which applies to the original, 1927 model.

automan1 · 09-29-2009, 10:32 PM

Doug,

Technically you are correct.

Also for ordering from their brochure page 14 they are listed as 1927A & 1927AC (Cutts Compensator) Thompson Automatic Carbine Semi-Automatic (Single shot) Action Only with one Type XX 20 round magazine.

Bill

alanint · 09-30-2009, 12:33 PM

Well, you are right!
I looked into the old catalog and contrary to what most collectors call these guns today, they were referred to as the model 1927A and 1927AC.
Go figure!

PhilOhio · 09-30-2009, 02:40 PM

Alanint has it all correrct. The original autos just had the markings changed and a few internal parts swapped out. I've handled a couple. They are extremely rare and would run in at least the $40K to $50K range right now, I believe. A standard 1921 Colt, by comparison, would typically go for a minimum of $25K to around 40 - 45. Wartime AOC or Savage Thompsons are $18K to maybe $26K.

The current semis from Kahr would sell for $700 to $800 used; new around $1500. Quality can in no way be compared to the real ones, but they look sorta the same...except side by side. They are fun guns when they work. And Paul Krogh of Delta, Colorado, can turn one into a functional and reliable work of art...just beautiful...for a reasonable price. But you may have to wait up to two years. For a guy who is serious about his Thompson, and lives in a state where full auto is impossible, "PK" and his 1927A1 rehab magic is the only way to go. Sorry, there is no website. Word of mouth is all this craftsman needs.

All the guns marked 1927A1, etc., are the recent Kahr flavor, although a few may have been made by Numrichs earlier. All of them are marked "Auto Ordnance", although the real company has not been around for over 60 years. The late George Numrich just began using the trademark around the 1960s; nobody objected because the original company and most of its people were dead; he later registered it in New York; his partner/successor Ira Trast sold it to Kahr; their lawyers misunderstand and think there was a "succession" of the direct AOC lineage, and Kahr ads pontificate about the unbroken tradition and heritage, etc. Some self proclaimed "authorities" in Thompson land, one or two in particular, also misunderstand and argue vehemently, but never have any luck supporting their bogus "unbroken succession" claims with documentation, beyond what they make up from whole cloth and hot air. The perpetual debate is interesting, and many thousands of words have been written and argued about it. It may fatten the bank accounts of generations of lawyers, and will certainly entertain generations of gray haired Thompson collectors with nothing better to argue about.

Thank heaven, we have few such uncertainties about Lugers, since the Germans documented everything to death and little was left to chance.

09-28-2009, 01:20 AM	#1
worldoftone User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 81 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Shooting C-96 + Thompson Semi-Auto Went to the range today. Hoped to have my long-barreled Luger ready, but it was not to be. Hopefully by next weekend. My C-96 with and without stock is very accurate at around 25-yards. Shot the Thompson from 15-25 yards with drum and stick mags. From a sheer fun factor standpoint, the new Auto-Ordinance Thompson's can't be beat. - WOT Attached Thumbnails

09-28-2009, 01:47 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Thanks to everyone for your reports on these two guns. I am a fan of both, but own neither... just too rich for my blood these days. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-28-2009, 08:22 PM	#9
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Just the other day I got to shoot a real 1927 Thompson 1927A1 at full auto,the way Colonel Thompson had intended. It was great.Loved the Cutts compensator,lots of muzzle flash. Previously I sampled the military M1A1 version,still fun but not near as much nostalgia! Had to drive to another state to do this! __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

09-29-2009, 01:08 PM	#13
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	I have never heard of a real semi-auto Thompson from the 1920's. Of course,where I live these guns are forbidden fruit! Where they common? __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

09-29-2009, 10:32 PM	#18
automan1 RIP Join Date: May 2009 Location: PA - USA Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Doug, Technically you are correct. Also for ordering from their brochure page 14 they are listed as 1927A & 1927AC (Cutts Compensator) Thompson Automatic Carbine Semi-Automatic (Single shot) Action Only with one Type XX 20 round magazine. Bill Last edited by automan1; 09-29-2009 at 11:45 PM.

09-28-2009, 06:35 AM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Cool. C96 shooting with stock on has a "hammer biting" problem. Because the holding hand position is high, it's also easy to accidentally push the safety level up during recoil on 1930. At least, that's my case... and my hand is small. Solution is putting the thumb on the right side of the gun (or left side if left-handed, my case). So the hand does not actually wrap the grip, but control the stability. Works well for me. Lots of fun. ==== Wait a minute... you shoot in backyard and neighbor has no problem with that? In Mid-West?

09-28-2009, 12:07 PM	#4
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	WOT, and Guys, make a little mental note here... Glad to hear that your new Kahr Arms semiauto Thompson "can't be beat", as many of them can be beat. Until recently, at least, they had a well deserved reputation of having one of the higher rates of new gun nonfunctionality of any firearm on the U.S. market. And if you want warranty service, there is a pretty solid database on how that works out, or doesn't. Multiple customer reports are available, spanning at least 8 years during which I closely followed the subject, as summarized below. There is no one particular problem with the guns. Problems reported by owners include, poor metallurgy, heat treatment, completely out-of-specs machining dimensions, barrels which unscrew with mere finger pressure, loose compensators which literally fall off or shoot off, rear sights which fall off because of bad riveting or almost no riveting, guns which simply will not feed any configuration of ammo, widespread evidence that no pre-delivery quality control inspection has ever taken place at all, extractors which repeatedly break, machine cuts and magazine releases so poorly and wrongly made that neither a drum magazine nor a stick magazine can be inserted or locked in place so that the bolt can pick up a round, bolt faces which just break, sear and firing pin mechanisms so poorly made that they jam up and the gun cannot be disassembled to repair or replace them without destroying more parts, and probably a few other minor problems I am forgetting. Oh yes, the aluminum frames are a major problem, or series of problems. Erosion and galling of the feed ramp is a big one. There is no fix, except a new frame or gun. It is the source of many Kahr non-feeding difficulties. Kahr Arms recently notified customers that warranties would be voided if they used steel cased ammo, such as that from Wolf. That was because they were well aware that their extractors and bolts were breaking because of poor quality and use of steel cased ammo. I avoid such ammo anyway, but WW-II Thompsons were made to milspecs assuming that steel cased ammo would be used without breakage problems. Kahr semis won't hack it. The Kahr drums are an entirely 'nother can of worms, both 50 and 100 rounders. A friend of mine, and an outstanding firearms craftsman in Oregon, Merle Bitikofer (aka "Merle the Drum Doctor"), makes a nice income remanufacturing and TESTING brand new inoperable Kahr Arms drums so that they work...as they should have done before leaving the Kahr Arms factory. By contrast, Chinese repro drums recently placed on the market are inexpensive and work flawlessly, with extensive user reports verifying this. Kahr management has been quite angry about that, and their lawyers have fought to harass the importers and threaten varous forms of retaliation against them and even against buyers of the drums! They have DEMANDED that some of these drums be surrendered to them...which gave me a good laugh. I own two. A Thompson owners' website offers the rare opportunity for owners to get together and compare notes. The result has been pretty conclusive. Caveat Emptor. A highly skilled gunsmith in Delta, Colorado derives a considerable portion of his total business just from taking new, or almost new, Kahr Arms 1927A1 semiauto Thompsons and virtually remanufacturing them so that they will at least work. Yesterday we had a political fund raiser for a nearby Republican candidate; people, mostly non-gun folks, got to shoot exotic guns for a fee, and some were newly drawn into the shooting sport. One of the guns was a 1927A1 semi-auto Thompson, and I'll be darned if it didn't work. Happily. The American Thompson Association (TATA) and its members have, for years, tried to help, persuade, cajole, motivate, and intimidate the craftsmen at Kahr Arms to improve this situation and see that the guns work before leaving the factory. The only change they have made so far was to replace the old "cheese grater" cocking knob with a more attractive 1928 style knob which looks better but is also poorly made and knurled. Sometimes we think things are improving, but usually we turn out to have been premature in our optimism. But every now and then one hears an owner report that one of these guns is actually working, like yours. That's a good sign. I avoid all that pain and frustration by owning an original registered full auto 1928AC gun which actually passed a rigid Auto Ordnance (the real one) quality control inspection in 1943. If you have a Kahr Thompson which works, congratulations. They can indeed be fun, and the magazine content lasts a little bit longer than mine, when I get overly enthusiastic on the trigger. Oh yes, it might be pertinent for a prospective purchaser to know that Kahr Arms is a subsidiary of a certain Saeilo corporation, which is a wholly owned (or perhaps "holy" owned) commercial front for the South Korean "Unification Church", more popularly known as the "Moonies", and the U.S. factory is directly run by one of the sons of founder Reverend SUN Myong-mun. Just remember, if you are walking a gun show and see a used Kahr semi Thompson on the table...better keep walking. It is probably there for a reason. If it was built in West Hurley by the late George Numrich's earlier version of Auto Ordnance, it is probably O.K. If not...keep hiking.

09-28-2009, 12:21 PM	#5
worldoftone User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 81 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	They allegedly revised a few things in 2007 to make them better. Mine works fine so far, and that's all I care about. If it breaks, oh well. I'm used to having to work on WWII guns to get them right anyway. Didn't really want to get into a political discussion here about who owns what, just having fun. - WOT

09-28-2009, 03:16 PM	#7
worldoftone User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 81 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	A numbers-matched good-condition C-96 is a real joy to shoot. A class act all the way Girlfriend liked it so much she now wants one. She has yet to shoot the Lugers . . . - WOT

09-28-2009, 11:05 PM	#10
worldoftone User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 81 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Heh heh sweet! - WOT

09-29-2009, 06:11 AM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Just as a clarification. The 1927 Thompson was a semi auto weapon. What you fired was either a 1921, 1921 AC, a 1928 or a 1928A1 Thompson.

09-29-2009, 06:42 AM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	So, historically, there was semi-auto version Thompson. Is that correct? I saw some newly made Auto Ordanance semi-auto Thompson on the market. Are them exactly 1927 style?

09-29-2009, 01:47 PM	#14
automan1 RIP Join Date: May 2009 Location: PA - USA Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	A 1927A or 1927AC was a semi-auto Thompson manufactured by Auto-Ordnance N.Y. in the late 1920's. Some were converted back to select fire. Bill

09-29-2009, 02:45 PM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	My sources state that the model of 1927 were actually Model 1921s, where the receivers were ground down to replace "Model of 1921 Submachinegun" with "Model of 1927 Semi Auto Carbine" and the "Auto" was removed from the frame. Both the upper and lower receivers remain the same as the Model of 1921 and can be easely converted back to FA. They are therefore considered to be SMGs by the ATF This would indicate that these were Colt made guns originally, not Auto Ordnance. Auto-Ordnance in West Hurley, NY made a semi starting in the 1980s, which are designated 1927A1s. These are purpose built as semis and cannot easely be converted to FA.

09-29-2009, 04:06 PM	#16
automan1 RIP Join Date: May 2009 Location: PA - USA Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Colt manufactured 1921 Thompson's for Auto-Ordnance N.Y. and not West Hurley N.Y. Bill

09-29-2009, 09:36 PM	#17
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	You are correct that Colt made the guns for the original Auto Ordnance Corporation, but the model designation was only "1927" There were NO 1927A or 1927AC models, as the "A" stands for "Automatic" and the "AC" stands for "Automatic, Compensated"- Neither which applies to the original, 1927 model.

09-30-2009, 12:33 PM	#19
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Well, you are right! I looked into the old catalog and contrary to what most collectors call these guns today, they were referred to as the model 1927A and 1927AC. Go figure!

09-30-2009, 02:40 PM	#20
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Alanint has it all correrct. The original autos just had the markings changed and a few internal parts swapped out. I've handled a couple. They are extremely rare and would run in at least the $40K to $50K range right now, I believe. A standard 1921 Colt, by comparison, would typically go for a minimum of $25K to around 40 - 45. Wartime AOC or Savage Thompsons are $18K to maybe $26K. The current semis from Kahr would sell for $700 to $800 used; new around $1500. Quality can in no way be compared to the real ones, but they look sorta the same...except side by side. They are fun guns when they work. And Paul Krogh of Delta, Colorado, can turn one into a functional and reliable work of art...just beautiful...for a reasonable price. But you may have to wait up to two years. For a guy who is serious about his Thompson, and lives in a state where full auto is impossible, "PK" and his 1927A1 rehab magic is the only way to go. Sorry, there is no website. Word of mouth is all this craftsman needs. All the guns marked 1927A1, etc., are the recent Kahr flavor, although a few may have been made by Numrichs earlier. All of them are marked "Auto Ordnance", although the real company has not been around for over 60 years. The late George Numrich just began using the trademark around the 1960s; nobody objected because the original company and most of its people were dead; he later registered it in New York; his partner/successor Ira Trast sold it to Kahr; their lawyers misunderstand and think there was a "succession" of the direct AOC lineage, and Kahr ads pontificate about the unbroken tradition and heritage, etc. Some self proclaimed "authorities" in Thompson land, one or two in particular, also misunderstand and argue vehemently, but never have any luck supporting their bogus "unbroken succession" claims with documentation, beyond what they make up from whole cloth and hot air. The perpetual debate is interesting, and many thousands of words have been written and argued about it. It may fatten the bank accounts of generations of lawyers, and will certainly entertain generations of gray haired Thompson collectors with nothing better to argue about. Thank heaven, we have few such uncertainties about Lugers, since the Germans documented everything to death and little was left to chance.